From: "David McInerney" <borderlands-AT-optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: AUT: Communists and Religious Movements?
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 23:34:53 +0930


Hi Robin

I don't think "philosophical materialism" refers to Feuerbach etc, but I see
where you are coming from, i.e, a reading of Marx's 6th (?) thesis on
Feuerbach, that "philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point is
to change it" - i.e, entailing that Marxism is a "post-philosophical"
position.  Balibar's reading of that thesis (in _The Philosophy of Marx_) is
(as I remember it) that Marx is rejecting a mode of philosophy that entails
constructing an interpretive system, rejecting also the self-image of the
philosophers, their imaginary relation to their actual practice, which is
that the point of philosophy is simply to "interpret" the world, without
thereby adding to it, intervening in it, whereas they actually do so in
constructing their systems.  Balibar and others within his tendency
(including Macherey, Althusser, Terray, etc) see materialism as a rejection
of that stance, as entailing acceptance of the inherent relation between
philosophy and politics (that philosophy represents politics within theory),
and also the thesis that all that exists is entirely material, that a realm
of ideas distinct from material reality is imaginary and exists only in its
real effects (within the practices of those who act as if it were true).

To return to Bill's formulation, "A materialist does not believe in  the
Supernatural. To believe in the supernatural at all, a little or a lot is to
not be a Philosophical Materialist." this would seem to be consistent with
the position that all that exists is material, that there is no "spiritual"
existence outside of material existence. When we act as if the Supernatural
does exist we are not being materialists, in the philosophical sense (as
opposed to the crass sense of "materialism" of being concerned with
hedonistic self-interested pleasure, in contrast I guess to the "idealism"
of the Kantian categorical imperative etc).

This is of course very different from the position that ideas "reflect" or
are "determined by" material (i.e., economic) reality, a position that
Macherey rejected (in 'In a Materialist Way', Montefiore (ed), _Philosophy
in France Today_, 1983) as an "idealism of matter" (he described Stalinist
"diamat" in these terms, but sees it as a tendency within Marxist thought
more generally).

Personally I don't and never have believe in religion or any form of
spiritualism but I sometimes act in a superstitious manner, believing in
"jinxes", "arse", etc when things consistently don't go my way, in spite of
my "self-image" as a materialist.  If our beliefs exist only in our actions,
then I guess at those times I am not a materialist, in spite of my "self".

David


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Handelman" <mhandelman1-AT-yahoo.com>
To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: AUT: Communists and Religious Movements?


> Isn't philosophical materialism, just Feurbach and the
> other Young Hegelians? Since they viewed the
> world in materialist terms, but they didn't realize
> how we have the ability to change the material world.
>
>
>
> --- RRobincox-AT-aol.com wrote:
> > Hi Friends
> > On the subject opf communism and religious movements
> > here's a little
> > exchange I had with a comrade in the WSM on the
> > World Socialism Now  community.  What
> > do people here think of "philosophical materialism";
> > is it  relevant to the
> > struggle ?
> > Regards
> > Robin
> > _www.worldincommon.org_
> > (http://www.worldincommon.org)
> > _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiCopendebate_
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiCopendebate)
> > _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/worldincommon/_
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/worldincommon/)
> > _____________________
> > BILL: I have answered your questions in more than
> > one way.
> >
> >
> > ROBIN: No, you havent at all! I am still waiting to
> > hear your  answers to
> > these 2 questions I posed
> >
> > 1) if religious people are  irrational ("screwballs"
> > as you called them) and
> > if the vast majority of the  populace are still
> > religious in one form or
> > another, HOW are you going to get  through to them
> > by means of rational persuasion?
> >
> > 2) Are people who  understand and support WSM
> > socialism, socialists in your
> > book - even if they  hold religious beliefs that
> > clearly do not affect their
> > political  consciousness?
> >
> > BILL: Here's another, A materialist does not believe
> > in  the Supernatural. To
> > believe in the supernatural at all, a little or a
> > lot is to  not be a
> > Philosophical Materialist. Like being pregnant, a
> > woman is or she is  not pregnant.
> >
> >
> > ROBIN: Philosophical materialism has got nothing
> > WHATSOEVER to do with
> > socialism; its an intellectual metaphysical position
> > along  with idealism dualism
> > and the rest and there are far more "philosophical
> > matrialists" that support
> > capitalism than oppose it
> >
> >
> > BILL: The WSM is  fundamentally a movement of
> > Materialists who have a general
> > understanding of  Evolution and of the Materialist
> > Conception of History
> > concerning the science of  understanding the
> > evolution of Society to the present
> > driving force, Capitalism.
> >
> >
> > ROBIN: The MCH has some bearing on socialism but NOT
> > "philosophical
> > materialism" which is a complete irrelevance. It is
> > totally possible to be a
> > philosophical idealist or dualist and subscibe to
> > the MCH as a tool for  understanding
> > history. The SPGB pamphlet on historical materialism
> > points out  that most
> > historians unwittingly make use of the MCH when
> > presumably most of  them are not
> > atheists
> >
> > BILL:Nearly all people are materialist in their
> > thinking as they go about
> > their everyday lives. They check for traffic before
> > crossing a road, they do
> > not rely on a guardian angel to protect them.
> > etc.etc.
> >
> > ROBIN: Right and at a stroke you have completely
> > demolished your  own
> > argument! You have demonstratd that having religious
> > beliefs does NOT  interfere with
> > the practical materialism that nearly all people
> > exhibit in their  daily
> > lives even though the vast majority of these
> > self-same people entertain  religious
> > beliefs!
> >
> >
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> >
> >      --- from list
> > aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>
> ====> "Economic freedom would mean freedom from the economy - from being
controlled by economic forces and relationships; freedom from the daily
struggle for existence, from earning a living. Political freedom would mean
liberation of the individuals from politics over which they have no control.
Similarly, intellectual freedom would mean the restoration of individual
thought now absorbed by mass communication and indoctrination, abolition of
"public opinion" together with its makers." Herbert Marcuse
>
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