Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:17:09 -0500
From: Nate Holdren <nateholdren-AT-gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: "Workers' Opposition"


Hi Sebastian and everyone-

I pretty much share Harald's opinion, though mine is much more
prejudice and much less founded on knowledge (as such, I found you two
suggesting material to be quite helpful). The bulk of what I know
about Trotsky and the history of trot groups comes from hearsay and
from Cohn-Bendit's book _Obsolete Communism_ (which I read at the same
time as Michael Perlman's _Secret History of Capitalism_, an
instructive pairing - Trotsky and Say both had very similar ideas on
what to do with recalcitrant peasants).

If I can ask (in as comradely a fashion as possible despite
disagreement), and at the risk of touching off a conflagration, I do
wonder, Sebastian, why you are a trotskyist - whether for political
reasons, intellectual reasons, certain attachment to the tradition,
some other reason.. I'm not interested in a fight or a tribunal, just
curious. Clearly being a trot doesn't make you incapable of helping
produce a good marxist journal...

cheers,
Nate


On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:06:32 +0200, Sebastian Budgen
<sebastian-AT-amadeobordiga.u-net.com> wrote:
> On Sep 5, 2004, at 3:26 AM, Harald Beyer-Arnesen wrote:
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sébastien Budgen" <sebastien.budgen-AT-wanadoo.fr>
> > To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 4:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: AUT: Re: "Workers' Opposition"
> >
> > Sébastien, thanks for the further ordering information for
> > Barbara C. Allen, "Worker, Trade Unionist, Revolutionary:
> > A Political Biography of Alexander Shliapnikov, 1905-1922".
> > I managed it this time, but as will now have it before 6-8
> > weeks as I choose the cheapest shipping.
> >
> > To the "What about Kronstadt? etc etc," which suppose
> > you imply Kronstadt 1921 ( that is very late ) and not
> > the counter-revolutionary year of 1918, I have this to
> > say: I do not find any common ground to discuss with
> > an apologist for a regime which was "Red on the outside
> > and White on the inside", to cite the approving words
> > of a supporter of "red fascism", that is Nicolai Ustryalov, a
> > leading figure within the so-called "changing landmark
> > movement," comprised of monarchists and others of
> > old right who originally had put their hopes on the Whites.
> >         Calling oneself "a trot" is no innocent thing. If not
> > a postion based on complete ignorance, it implies taking
> > a principled stand for the mass-slaugthering, oppression
> > and exploitation of workers and peasants, and signals
> > support to the ultra-rightist theoretical and practical
> > policies of Trotskii, Lenin, Dzerzhinskii, amongst others.
> > Like other inquisitors before them, it is not unlikely
> > they also saw themselves as crusaders for an abstract
> > Justice in en eternal struggle against Evil, sometimes
> > embodied in whores to be shot for getting sailors
> > drunk.
> >
> 
> Need I say more? As I predicted, when the person you are 'debating'
> with accuses you "taking a principled stand for the mass-slaugthering,
> oppression and exploitation of workers and peasants... etc.", there is
> clearly no room for slightest rational exchange - let alone an informed
> confrontation of ideas - any more than there would be between a Nazi
> and a communist. I think I'll just leave it there. Another place,
> another time, maybe, one hopes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>


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