From: Michael Current <mcurrent-AT-picard.infonet.net>
Subject: Re: "Rave" Not an Effective (or Meaningful) Counter-Culture Movement (fwd)
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 23:52:25 -0500 (CDT)


Um, is this still the "anything goes" list or are we about to get in trouble
here?  I really could not believe Kent's post to Film-Theory, especially given
that we handled the situation.  What bothered me most was there was a clear
between-the-lines message that he didn't like the fact that we handled it by
invoking him.  What else are we supposed to do?  Argue in the name of restraints
on speech that we don't believe in.  God, I feel stupid even allowing myself
to worry about this.  I mean, take the below.  It looks like these guys are
beating the hell out of each other, but in cultural context, I'm pretty
sure, this is basically just talk.  Nobody is distraught, offended or likely
to leave the list over it.  How do we tell people there is no freedom of
speech here?  How do we tell them that they might be being, frankly, too
avant-garde for the avant-garde list?  Beats the hell out of me.  What is 
worse, I have a strong feeling that even trying to keep the peace I am in
some way validating Kent's posture, and that if I lived up to my convictions
I would have to leave.  But I really don't want to.

Michael 

Tad Kepley writes:
> From avant-garde-approval-AT-world.std.com  Mon May  2 17:45:39 1994
> Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 16:46:40 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Tad Kepley <tkepley-AT-bigcat.missouri.edu>
> Subject: Re: "Rave" Not an Effective (or Meaningful) Counter-Culture Movement (fwd)
> To: avant-garde-AT-world.std.com
> Cc: avant-garde-AT-world.std.com
> In-Reply-To: <9404300227.AA12852-AT-dorsai.dorsai.org>
> Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9405021538.C8393-0100000-AT-bigcat>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
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> 
> On monday 2nd may, T. Kepley wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 29 Apr 1994, Whit Blauvelt wrote:
> 
> > Tad Kepley sez:
> > > 
> > > On Thu, 28 Apr 1994, Whit Blauvelt wrote:
> > 
> > > forged them into something > unified and stronger there. > > Just because
> > > culture has had its failures and cooptions, doesn't mean > culture can't
> > > be real. And I can't begin to guess how you'd envision any > real progress
> > > from the present state of things which doesn't enlist > cultural forces.
> > > Saying, "The system will always win; there's nothing we can do" is
> > > exactly what the system wants youto say.. > > Whit 
> > > 
> > > FIRST, don't put words in my mouth. That's the first stunt of someone who 
> > > doesn't have anything to say themselves...
> > 
> > If you don't agree with the statement I used to characterize your coopted 
> > outlook, I apologize, but would really like to hear your alternative. 
> > _Is_ there something we can do, in your dark view?
> 
> yeah, and I explained it to you. Please try to pay attention. Ignore the 
> noise, and disappear. > 
> 
> > > SECOND, "kultur" is bunk, (it has ALWAYS throughout history been the
> > > BASEST of commodities...) just like history. ... False opposition of a 
> > > spectacular nature
> > > is what I'm talking about here, and you should know it- which is exactly
> > > what any ideologically consumptive and anemic "subculture" is, when you
> > > get right down to it- no matter what particular form of "revolutionary"
> > > rhetoric is being paid lip-service this week. and the system certainly
> > > isn't threatened by idiots dancing til dawn for world brotherhood. 
> > 
> > Of course you wrote that before seeing the postings from England about 
> > the new laws going through there.
> 
> WRONG. These harassments and bits of threatened legislation have been 
> bandied about for some time now. Check it out.
> 1. Brit yella press sensationalizes rave/traveller activity, calls it a 
> "moral threat".
> 2. Public outcry follows, manufactured or real, it doesn't matter.
> 3. Legislators and law enforcement, always eager to present themselves as 
> protectors of the public good/morality, take action, cluck-clucking all the way.
> 4. Action taken causes large-scale violence at some lame event, public 
> outcry by more liberal elements ensues. Cops back off, reluctantly. 
> Ravers/travellers bitch about it for months in their zines, in the net, 
> and face to face, but they don't _do_ shit to exact revenge.
> 5. repeat.
> This is "thee" classic formula for this spectacular mode of conflict. 
> Everybody wins- the right-wing legislators, the surburbanites satisfied 
> by seeing these "animals" clubbed on the evening news, the cops because 
> they get to take out their frustrations on people who might be having a 
> good time (cops hate that, they don't have much fun themselves), and the 
> alternative multi-culti types who get to feel righteously indignant about 
> getting their asses kicked, and congratulate themselves for their 
> foresight in seeing that "the state really _does_ suck, after all!" Everyone 
> strokes their fetishes AND STILL GOES TO WORK THE NEXT DAY.
> 
>  Whether or not "kultur" is bunk, human 
> > communities have been cultural since long before commodification - don't 
> > confuse your own inability to shed the commodity mindset in dealing with 
> > human expression with an inability to do so on the part of the rest of us 
> > - many have learned to do so through experiences of live community such 
> > as, yes, raves.
> 
> Man, you're just blowin' my weak arguments right out of the water. I'll 
> take a page from John Zerzan's book, say, and play devil's advocate using 
> the type of freshman philosophical paradox you seem so familiar with. If 
> you want to, like Zerzan, we can try and trace the problem to its ancient 
> origins. Was it agriculture that took us out of our supposedly edenic 
> hunter-gatherer state? Religion? Surplus (exchange value supplanting use 
> value)? Just what the hell are we talking about here? I'll tell you. 
> Commodification occured the first time someone traded something for 
> something. As I'd wager the first exchange took place before language 
> evolved, ALL human interaction, all human CULTURE, has been commodity. I 
> dare say language evolved just to facilitate more efficient 
> trade. First time some australopithi-type traded nuts, you had 
> commodity. You might not've had surplus, but you damn sure had commodity. As 
> far as we know, that was long before your bullshit "culture", your scratchings
> at Lascaux, arrived on the scene. But this is all moot.
>   
> > > "Rave" is about as important > > as "punk", whatever that was. > 
> > Hey, punk totally saved music. Sure, it led finally to its heir, Cobain, 
> > saying "Woops, I'm not authentic, time to take myself out." But he 
> 
> If you think that was what was going through his head then you deserve to 
> have go through your head what he had go through his. Dig me?
>  >
>  wouldn't have known that if he hadn't had _some_ experience with being 
> > authentic. (And if by doing this he turned suicide into a "kultural" act, 
> > ain't that the way you wish kultur would go?)
> > 
> Kurdt waffled. He should have gone like it had been discussed- rushing 
> the local PD with his AR-15. He should've gone out, as it had been 
> jokingly discussed, like Emile Henri, like Jules Bonnot, like Randy 
> McHuberty or plenty of others you don't want to remember. "Individuals" 
> like you, who parrot the platitudes they read over the AP wire or hear on 
> the evening news (Kurdt as punk's heir) were, and are, the problem. This 
> doesn't need to be discussed here, at least by me, any further. Remind me 
> never to join a band with Pat Smear. I also have a very strong feeling 
> that you don't have the club-card that will allow you to make judgements 
> regarding p-rock/HC "authenticity".
> 
> > > THIRDLY, if SONY hasn't glommed it yet, certainly doesn't mean it won't.
> > 
> > Sure,
> > if Sony made anything that good its own workers would be so turned 
> > on by it they'd drop out, and there'd be no-one left to make it.
> 
> what? Are you really that stupid? You've got to be kidding. Leviathan quakes.
> 
> Gonna dance that state right outta my hair,
> TAD KEPLEY> 
> 

-- 
---------------------------Michael J. Current----------------------------
 mcurrent-AT-picard.infonet.net -or- -AT-ins.infonet.net -or- -AT-nyx.cs.du.edu
Specializing in Philosophy, Queer Studies, Depression, & Unemployment :)
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