File spoon-archives/avant-garde.archive/avant-garde_1998/avant-garde.9811, message 88


Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:14:28 -0500 (EST)
From: George Free <aw570-AT-freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck the Situationists (fwd)



On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 Thivai4062-AT-aol.com wrote:

> 
> If you had been paying attention you would have realized that the original
> message was a forward of a message that *someone else* wrote---

	I am fully aware of that.

I posted it
> here to see what people on this list would make of it---perhaps get some
> intellectual discussion about whether it matters or not where someone gets
> there money---does it disqualify their art/movements.
> 
	Well that didn't seem to be the point of the original post. 
Basically it tried to trash debord by saying that everything he did was 
motivated by narrow self-interest. My response was that you could apply 
the same logic to the (anonymous) accuser--that 'they were only trying to 
draw attention to themselves.' However, I don't think there is any point 
to these kind of accusations. If someone wants to criticize someone they 
should address the substantive issues raised in their work.
	BTW, I would enjoy a good spoof or paradoy of the situationists 
work as much as anyone. This post did not contain an ounce of humour, IMHO.


> And there were some interesting comments---but I didn't really expect you to
> take it so personally---is there some reason that that posting has hit such a
> nerve with you

	It did hit a nerve, though I usually let such things pass. This 
time I thought I'd respond.
	My irritation is aroused for reasons mentioned above. I have no 
particular interest in Debord and/or the Situationists. I read Society of 
the Spectacle and some other things years ago... I just don't think its 
right to attack someone in the manner of the "Fuck the Situationists" post.
	Did the person have the courage to sign their name? ...this alone 
speaks volumes. 

---and no you have no idea what "Poetic Terroism" is---if you
> would like to know check out Hakim Bey's "Temporary Autonomous Zones"---or if
> you cant find it i would be more than happy to post it on this list.
> 

	No I haven't read Bey. If you want to present some of Bey's 
ideas, perhaps people would like to discuss/respond to them.

> Lastly I never told you to "fuck-off"---you for some reason interpreted what i
> said as telling you to fuck-off---why the insecurity?---and i definitely never
> told you "I was only joking"---because I'm not, I was engaging in "Play"
> (while never to be confused with *serious*, it is not joking) attempting to
> spark conversation in something that interests me---
> 
	When I said "you" I meant "one" in general. My apoligies for not 
being clear on who I was attributing this viewpoint to. (though it seems 
you have some sort of admiration for this kind of writing).
	Don't you think that that "Fuck the Situationists" post was
extremely aggressive? Isn't it destined--intentionally or not--to arouse
irritation/anger in its targets? I don't think such an attack is very
skillful. Its just a put down, and is not likely to change minds or
provoke reflection and thought. 

> So now maybe you can try to get past this imaginary slight to yourself and try
> to discuss something---I mean the truly pitiful thing is that all you have
> been doing is whining about how these things are negative, yet you are unable
> to engage in any serious conversation---try to delve into an issue and
> respond.
> 
	I find your responses (such as the above paragraph) to be quite
insulting, but, believe me, I don't take it at all personally. It is you 
who have failed to respond to my substantive arguments, though I probably 
should have elaborated on them more to fully explain my point.

regards,

George Free

> aw570-AT-freenet.toronto.on.ca writes:
> 
> << 
>  	I'm beginning to understand what you mean by "poetic terrorism." 
>  Basically, you tell people to fuck off, and that everything they've done 
>  is motivated by narrow self-interest, and then when they react 
>  negatively, you say "Lighten up, I'm only joking."
>  
>  George
>   >>
> 
> 
>      --- from list avant-garde-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> 




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