From: MFaizi5009-AT-aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:32:26 EDT Subject: Re: dis und dat In a message dated 8/20/99 1:20:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, borealis-AT-mail.wellsgray.net writes: > Subj: Re: dis und dat > Date: 8/20/99 1:20:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: borealis-AT-mail.wellsgray.net (J. Foster) > Sender: owner-bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu > Reply-to: bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu > To: bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu > > Faizi writes: > >If a man claims to possess an "unconsciousness," then, how is he a man? > > Everyone has an unconscious mind. It functions, and performs many > operations, cognitive and emotive. A simple demonstration of the power of > the unconscious occurs when a feeling or a thought is repressed by the > conscious mind. A person who puts off a task due to pressures or doubts or > other opportunities will feel differently than if that they carry out the > task. Just try repressing the thought of a nice weekend at a wonderful place > in the mountains on a weekend and try working instead. If one is really > interested in the recreation rather than working on the weekend to catch up > on contract work, that person may feel depression, sadness, or worry. If > they choose to say no to catch up work, they will feel relieved . > The choice of lifestyle will also effect a persons sense of well being. > > "The heart has reasons the mind knows nothing about" Pascal > > > >What is depth of feeling, John? Is such depth mere emotion or is it > >something a bit more focused than emotion? > > Faizi, I dont know what depth of emotion is. I am supposed to be a man, not > a woman. But I'll grant you an answer based on my unconscious feminine self. > It may not be what you are looking for. > > First of all emotion always is associated with a sensory image of one sort > or another. It is said that even concepts have some image attached to them, > therefore emotions are feelings derived from a sensible image, either in > nature or in art and language. The depth of emotion is a function of the > intensity of the sensation, or the sensible in the image which may be > auditory, visual, tactile, taste, or smell. Those sensible images which are > the most intense, are often the most pleasureable, due to contrast, or > variation in the course of ones' life. For instance a beautiful sunset is > not going to as intense if each day of the year there is a similarily > intense sunset, would agree? > > Depth does not imply breadth of emotion. This is important because depth as > a dimension relates only to the intensity of the emotion, not the duration. > Emotions are critical to the survival of the organism since any positive > emotion that results from a pleasant sensation improves the survival of the > animal. This is why sexual pleasure is very strong in mammals. There is a > long gestation period as well as a long nurturing period for mammals > relative to say reptiles where there is virtually no gestation period or > nurturing period. One would expect therefore that the human species obtains > the greatest pleasure of any animal in procreation, and in terms of raising > young. In fact the nearest primate relatives of ours the bonobo monkey's > have families that function similarly to our own in that they share food and > to sympathic. The chimpanzee infant may stay with its parent mother for over > twenty years. There are no apparent reasons other than fact that the mother > was solitary and therefore the offspring did not learn to socialize with the > other monkeys. When the mother died of old age, the offspring remained with > the dead mother for two weeks and apparently died of grief. > > The presence of grief is the absence of any feeling. In love therefore the > greatest happiness is associated with reconciliation. In fact there are > three requirements for love between two people - if love is going to last. > Love requires passion, intimacy and trust/commitment. These three types of > love are interdependent. Now you replied with your unconscious mind in your > reply that commitment is what women what, right? They want commitment from > their partners so as to remain in love. However there are two other > important features that provide love with some of the greatest emotions and > feelings of affection and devotion, namely passion and intimacy. Passion is > the desire to unite with the beloved. It is the basis of all romantic love, > and some say within the experience of romantic love is found the greastest > intensity [depth of emotion]. It in the fullness of passionate love that one > loses a sense of personal identity. The story of abelardo and heloise is a > story of great passion. When two persons meet for the first time and > discover they are in love totally with the each other there is no power on > earth that is strong enough to prevent them from being in love. Since the > power of love is enabled solely in the enactment of love which has its > result in making the beloved feel pleasure, love cannot simply be passionate > all the time. While passion in love is desireable to over come the > resistance of the self to withdraw and to doubt, intimacy is critical to > love. Intimacy is the ability of lovers to gain understanding of the other > using sympathy and care. Some people maintain that intimacy is 'true love' > in that it is based on a most self-less desire to reach out to another > person in understanding. Intimacy requires an open or quiet heart. With the > three types of love there is a triangle completed that takes on a flexible > shape since each person has different needs and expectations of love. The > level of commitment and trust for instance that one requires in love with > another may be difficult to achieve early in the partnership. For instance > the level of commitment in love may depend a lot on what a person is willing > to do to stay. That is to say that the person may break with the commitment > to respect the other as a result of anger over something relatively trivial. > To be committed then is something more than simply staying and living > together in the same house, it means to be committed in love to each other > in terms of the basic needs such as love. Anger and abusive conduct > indicates a serious lack of commitment to the terms of the loving > friendship. Strife can soon end love in the fullest sense. Only fools will > remain in love where there is no commitment to the terms of love: that is > respect, honor, and trust. Neither passion nor intimacy can be enforced, > therefore love is an act. > > >> The capability of good art whether literature, painting or music is the > >> power of the genre to evoke a feeling-tone to an object or subject area. > Is > >> this capability also a characteristic of the feminine in both men and > >women? > >> Or is this capability [sensibility] only in the feminine of the female? > > > >Deep feeling is certainly not the exclusive domain of the female. Quite > the > >contrary. A man is more capable of deep feeling or sensitivity than are > >women. A woman is shallow. > > Faizi, you may be right. I cannot argue with your point. I will never > experience being a woman. You will never experience being a man. As Meister > Eckhart said: "Love makes one become what the love." Your mission as I see > it is to love men so that you become like one of them. Perhaps that is the > same for some men as well. > > > >There is no mystery, John. The mystery is only a mask; a hook. > > Well I am sure you just said that are masks. How do we tell when the other > is wearing a mask? What is war paint on a womans face look like? What is a > death mask look like? Why do women and men do anything with their faces? > > >> >>The aesthetic for the male writer is often about obtaining power. > > >What other aesthetic is there? > > Obtaining pleasure. Is that what George Bataille is talking about in his > writings, in the Story of the Eye for instance. > > The following are some quotes from George Bataille; > > "Man goes constantly in fear of himself. His erotic urges terrify him." > [Death and Sensuality] > > "Eroticism is different from animal sexuality in that for a man aroused > clear images surge up with the distinctness of objects; eroticism is the > activity of a conscious being." > > 'I believe that eroticism has a significance for mankind that the scientific > attitude cannot reach. Eroticism cannot be discussed unless man too is > discussed in the process. In particular, it cannot be discussed > independently of the history of religions.... > > Let me stress that in this work flights of Christian religious experience > and bursts of erotic impulses are seen to be part and parcel of the same > movement. > > Eroticism, unlike simple sexual activity, is a pyschological quest > independent of the natural goal: reproduction and the desire for children. > From this elementary definition let us now return to the formula I proposed > in the first place: eroticism is assenting to life even in death. > > And then, beyond the intoxication of youth, we achieve the power to look > death in the face and to perceive in death the pathway into the unknowable > and incomprehensible continuity - that path is the secret of eroticism and > eroticism alone can reveal it.... > > What I have been saying enables us to grasp in those words the unity of the > domain of eroticism open to us through a conscious refusal to limit > ourselves within our individual personalities. Eroticism opens the way to > death. Death opens the way to the denial of our individual lives. > > Michael Perkins [The Secret Record] comments that Bataille means by evil the > idea of taboo because it makes the sinner feel anquish through transgression > against a taboo. There is 'terror' at the heart of sensuality because with > sensuality there is associated the ultimate depth of pleasure with another > which is immediate, not mediated. Eroticism is" wedded to life itself; not > as an object of scientific study, but more deeply, as an object of passion > and poetic contemplation." Erotic love is love in the deepest sense. It > includes passion and intimacy, as well as commitment since it is found in > the death of the self, which is momentary, according to Bataille. Forgetting > ones self in the transgression of the taboo is the 'death' of the self. Only > the center is left alive, the heart. > > "Poetry leads to the same place as all forms of eroticism - to the blending > and fusion of seperate objects." George Bataille. > > In the discussion of the fragment by Jean-Luc Nancy and Philippe > Lacoue-LaBarthe there is an interesting paragraph on what art consists in. > In the discussion the point is made that "romanticism aims at the heart and > inmost depths - that 'most profound intimacy' scattered throughout > texts....in this same inmost depth, the dialectical unit[y] of artificial > production (of art) and of natural production: of procreation, germination, > and birth. One should never forget the term naive appears in these texts > (especially in connection with the naive poetry of the ancients), that after > Schiller this word refers to both naivete (innocence) and nativity. The > motif of the unification of the Ancient and the Modern, as it appears so > often in the fragments, always refers to the necessity of bringing about a > rebirth of ancient naivete according to modern poetry." > > The abysmally romantic conception then is too remain in fear of sin [to > remain naive], but to yield to life in spite of the anguish that the taboo > arouses. For Man then the greatest fear is the fear of involvement in the > erotic since it is a powerful urge to forget taboos. The erotic is the > impulse for life in death. It is the ancient love of friendship and passion. > > > john > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >The aesthetic for the female writer is about power over the sensation > of > >> >lack of identity, which (identity) is given concretion in emotional > >> >experience. > >> > > >> >>There are the writings of Ralph Ellison, and Hawthorne > >> >>that are really good in that they can express more nuances in feeling. > > > > >> Women > >> >>write about people they know and love. > > > >If one is a lover of philosophy, then, how can one condone the writers of > >relationships? > > > > > >> >Yes, and that's about the only thing they write about. Relationship is > >> >everything to a woman; relationship grounded in emotional experience. > >What > >> >woman ever seriously had a relationship to her ideas? > > > >> >>Of course I am generalizing. But > >> >>there is a difference and women make good company. > > > >Do they make good company when they become demanding? > > > >> >Personally, I find women (of either gender) largely intolerable company[ > > >].. > >> . > >> >They appear to seriously believe that what they > >> >"feel" is of equal significance to what they "think". This is > >> >understandable, and to some degree, probably true, given that, in the > >main, > >> >their thought is hopelessly superficial. > >> > >> Is this not a favourable recipe for the creative process that makes for > >good > >> art? > > > >Most artists are male. > > > >> Does not the rational side of existence need to collaborate with the > >> creative side of existence to perfect art? and to develop a sensibility > for > >> art. In the following paragraph you refer to myth as concealment. Can > you > >> elaborate a little more on this in general use of the term myth? > > > >What is art besides decoration? How is art important? Is it important to > >the development of the individual or is it a frivolous pursuit in light of > >pure thought? > > > >> >It is largely true that the sexes do not understand each other very > well. > >> >But for the man, his ignorance is borne of egotistical weakness, not > some > >> >inherent incapacity or limit of cognitive experience. He *chooses* to > >> >remain ignorant to the nature of Woman; he chooses to create the myth > of > >> >Woman as Goddess because it is not in his nature to be submissive, and > if > >> >submit he must, in order to achieve his comforts, then what he submits > to > >> >must be a thing of relative greatness, a thing worthy of his submission > > > > >If a man submits in order to achieve comfort from a woman, then, how is he > a > >man? > >If woman is a Goddess, then, what of him? Does he agree to slavery? > > > >Man is a pathetic creature indeed. > > > >Faizi > > > >> >Dan Rowden > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <owner-bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu> > Received: from rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) > by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v60.28) with ESMTP; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:20:35 -0400 > Received: from lists.village.virginia.edu (lists.village.virginia.edu [128. > 143.200.198]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v60.25) with ESMTP; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01: > 20:21 -0400 > Received: (from domo-AT-localhost) by lists.village.virginia.edu (8.8.5/8.6.6) > id BAA54707 for bataille-outgoing; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:18:46 -0400 > X-Authentication-Warning: lists.village.virginia.edu: domo set sender to > owner-bataille-AT-localhost using -f > Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by lists. > village.virginia.edu (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id BAA49070 for <bataille-AT-lists. > village.virginia.edu>; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:18:39 -0400 > Received: from borealis (ts2-16.clearwater.wellsgray.net [206.108.201.208]) > by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA16777 > for <bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:18:20 -0700 ( > PDT) > Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990820052116.0071e890-AT-mail.wellsgray.net> > X-Sender: borealis-AT-mail.wellsgray.net > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:21:16 -0700 > To: bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu > From: "J. Foster" <borealis-AT-mail.wellsgray.net> > Subject: Re: dis und dat > Sender: owner-bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: bataille-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu > > .....
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