From: "Dave Miller" <D.R.Miller-AT-newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:00:36 GMT0BST
Subject: Re: Baudrillard Vs. Foucault


> Date:          Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:43:14 +0000
> From:          Ian Robert Douglas <I.R.Douglas-AT-bristol.ac.uk>
> Subject:       Re: Baudrillard Vs. Foucault
> To:            baudrillard-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> Cc:            foucault-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> Reply-to:      baudrillard-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU

> Douglas Kellner wrote:
> 
> >I think that the discussion of Baudrillard's FORGET FOUCAULT so far has
> >missed why JB thinks we can forget MF .. once we enter the era of
> >simulations
> >proper, postmodernity, we are propelled beyond modernity and thus beyond
> >the world of Foucault. Thus, JB affirms that MF has very nicely
> >described
> >the world of modern power but these forms of power are volatized in the
> >worlds of simulation.
> 
> I think that this is right, of course.  The serious point is that JB
> takes a different reading of the contemporary moment, but that doesn't
> necessarily translate as easily into the notion of 'forgetting'.  I think
> throughout the essay 'FF', one can feel the debts JB has to Nietzsche's
> essay on the uses and disadvantages of history for life.  JB (I would
> suggest) knows full well that his whole approach to the contemporary is
> unimaginable without Foucault.  So again, its not so much 'forgetting',
> as forgetting is in some sense 'building on'/transcending.
>   I guess that doesn't clarify much, but it seems to be that the use of
> the word 'forget' is in this instance, very careful.
> 
> 
>  
> ian.r.d.
> 
> "Violence on television only affects children whose
> parents act like television personalities."
> 

   An interesting comment for a submission to a  postmodernist
list.... is this meant to imply a new 'caste' based upon what order 
simulation your parents habitually refer to?  Presumably some people 
are meant to be more affected by the third order than others...
  More seriously, do you think that JB is talking about the 
opportunity for self-actualisation given awareness of 
self-referential representation and the role of 'new religions' based 
on the media, and stating that an MF-style awareness of the 
manipulation of memes throughout history would in fact be detrimental 
to the cynicism of the masses because the media is their 
_opportunity_?  Is the mass media the answer Gramsci wanted 
(_preceding_  the transformation of labour relations in production), 
or instead, as you seem to imply in your signature, not only the 
opium of the masses but their LSD as well, JB's 'Apocalypse Now'?  
Are we headed for a new medieval technology?  Are the media and the 
medieval _that_close?
              Dave.    

"'O mighty god, who has taken under protection
this city and this people, I pray, beseech, and
request of you this indulgence, that you desert
the city of Carthage and its people, abandon the
places, temples, sacred sites, and their city, 
go forth out of them.  On that people cast fear,
terror, and forgetfulness: abandoned by them, 
come to Rome to me and my people... And if you 
accomplish these things, I promise that temples 
and games shall be established to honour you...'"
            the terrible formula of "evocatio"
               Dorey, Rome against Carthage, p172

Dave Miller
Campaign for Better Lies 
Dept. of Politics
University of Newcastle
NE1 7RU

D.R.Miller-AT-NCL.AC.UK