Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:02:16 -0800
From: klycea-AT-halsp.hitachi.com (Adam-HALPID Klyce)
Subject: Re[4]: Warhol/sci-fi/turnips/death


     Thank you, Omar, for the fast response.
     
     What I think I see going on here is really the application of two 
     concepts of death. Physical and something else.
     
     For the most part I do not see the point in arguing about physical 
     death since its definition is bound to change based on many things; 
     medical science being the most obvious.
     
     But, to say a little on that subject: It goes without saying that if 
     your method of ascertaining the presence of death involves measuring, 
     then your working definition of death changes, not only with your 
     ability to measure it but with your reasons for measuring it. What 
     gets measured? Well, brain activity (as determined by the presence, or 
     lack, thereof), the pulse, breathing and I'm sure some other things as 
     well. There is even the concept of "brain-dead" as opposed to some 
     other sort of dead. Why are these things measured? In some cases so 
     that some action can be taken to reverse the effects of dying,in some 
     cases to determine if the actions that have already been taken are 
     worth continuing and in some cases so that the person's body can be 
     buried without them waking up later only to be sorely disappointed.
     
     So to me, at least, experiencing the kind of death that is measurable, 
     the sort I described above, is determined by whatever concept of it 
     you have before it begins to happen to you. I mean, if you are afraid 
     to die - then the moment where your organs are failing will probably 
     be scary. Perhaps there are occasions where your experience is 
     determined by what is killing you; a death caused by something that 
     hurts will give the experiencer a different experience than a death 
     casued by something that doesn't hurt. Also, I believe that there 
     occasions where the experience of dying is determined, at least in 
     part, by the dying person - someone who wants to die, for a variety of 
     reasons, will probably have a different - overall - experience than 
     someone who does not want to die.
     
     But, there seems to be some other kind of death, where something other 
     than your brain activity and pulse cease. And it seems to me that its 
     the experience of that sort of death that people are talking about 
     here.
     
     This may seem trivial, obvious, ridiculous or whatever, but so does 
     this whole discussion; if you are merely talking about the death of 
     "life-signs" in a measurable way. I mean,  what's the point? 
     
     So, are we talking about the death of the "being" or of the mechanics 
     (body parts), both or neither?

     Does any of this seem reasonable, for a ramble anyway?

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Warhol/sci-fi/turnips/death
Author:  Omar Nasim <umnasimo-AT-cc.UManitoba.CA> at halsic_ccsmtp
Date:    12/18/96 9:14 PM


        Adam, this post is with regards to your request for a defination,
of death, dead and dying.  I am taking the most literal understanding of 
these terms, that is, the dictionary defination.  I know this would not 
satisfy anyone, so allow me to make an attempt at a defination, nothing 
formal though.  When I use the word "Death" I am refering to that moment 
of life, when an individual has died or is presently dead.  By died or 
dead, I signify, a momentous state, an experience (i.e. the very dying 
experience, and post-death experience, whatever that maybe) that an 
individual goes through, that ends his/her life, and has moved into 
another state of "Being", another ontological level, i.e. a metaphysical 
plain of existence.  By "dying", I am refering to the very experiece of 
"Death", i.e. the very experiece of being dead or the process of that Death. 
Mind you, I know this sounds real Mysterious and Religious, but Adam 
asked for it!!!! :)
Hope this helps, 
Omar Nasim
p.s. I do not want to end up Arguing for or against this defination, its 
only a starting point, and nothing else, so please don't make a big deal 
of it..... :) thankyou