From: "Hans Despain" <DESPAIN-AT-econ.sbs.utah.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:17:08 GMT-700 Subject: Re: the ontological status of structures Heikki suggests "What seems to be at stake in most of the contributions is the ontological status of structures". This is certainly true, but the conception of agency is central to the ontological status of structure. In that structure is "enabling", seems to imply that a conception of structure is not "free" or distinct from a conception of agency. i also agree with Heikki that the differences in interpretations from Giddens, Bhaskar, Porpora, and ("orthodox") Marxism, is one of degree. Colin is also correct to point out that the ontological commitment of structure has further methodologocial, epistemological, and (i would add) practical consquences. Hence, the differences in interpretations are central, although perhaps not THE social theory question. i am not convinced that Giddens's account of structure reduces to an intersubjective analysis. However, it does seem fair to speak of general tendencies (and dangers) of interpretations. Whereby intersubjectivity may apply to Giddens. Heikki lists four interpretations of structure: "1. Structures as virtual, yet real. 2. Structures as non-virtual and real, but neither distinct nor on a different level than agency. 3. Structures as non-virtual and real and also on a different level than agency. 4. Structures as non-virtual and real and, in a addition to being on a different level than agency, also distinct from agency." Personally, i would like to argue that structures are real, can metaporically be depicted as virtual, as long as this does not mean that they loss their ontological and objective status. Structure 2 does not seem to me to be Doug's position (perhaps closer to 4?). 2 seems to have the strongest tendency toward reification. Personally, i believe this to be the *most* dangerous tendency, for it denies both an adequate conceptions of agency and potential for (especially conscious) transformation. However, i would further argue that 4 also as a tendency to imply reification. Also, i am unsure in what way one can speak of structure and agency as non-distinct, but on different levels, if this is the case we should also have: 5. distinct, though not different levels? Let me make sure i understand the difference between distinct and different levels. By distinct: i understand this to be in reference to the duality of structure and agency, in that neither can (or should) be reduced to the other -- as depicted by the Weberian and Durkheimian cases (PON chapter 2). Different levels, also is in reference to the duality of structure and agency, specifically in avoiding reifing structure and agency to a dualism. Whereby, we can discuss distinction with respect to the ontological status of each one, and different levels with respect to interaction between these two different "things". With respect to different levels, we (should) want to speak about ontological priority, without reifing. In this sense, the term "different level" seems to overstate the case. Better we can concieve of time-space relation, as does Giddens and (i believe) Bhaskar. For Giddens the time-space relation seems to suggest intersubjective, perhaps because it emphasizes the discursive consciousnes aspect; while for Bhaskar the time-space relation seems to suggest objectivity, perhaps because of his emphasis on the pre-existence of social relations with respect to the individual. Moreover, Giddens conception seems to depend on the a notion of consciousness (discursive, practical, and un-), whereas Bhaskar does not have structure so much dependent on consciousness, but rather more directly related to agency as enabling. The exchange between Heikki and Colin on *mechanism* seems quite helpful --in that it is related to the question: what ontological status should be given to a generative mechanism? I.P. Wright offers a few (soical) examples: e.g. the rate of profit, mass unemployment, capitalist markets. For example the status given to the (tendency for the) rate of profit (to fall) will very much determine our understanding of a capitalist society [however, generative mechanisms are here understood as tendencies in the Bhaskarian sense, not *necessarilly* as empirical manifestations]. Personally, i do not see the import over the term "virtual". In one sense the falling rate of profit is virtual, in that it does not exist somewhere as a natural enity, or in the same way as say gravity. It is in this sense that this "generative mechanism" is time-space dependent, specifically the falling rate of profit is t-s dependent on the existence of capitalist relations or profit motivated behavior, but at the same in the time-space relation, we can speak of the falling rate of profit in the same way that we of (say) gravity. Finally i do agree with Heikki that external and internal relations become centeral to the discussion. He (i assume he will not mind me mentioning) has argued this in his article "Concepts of 'Action', 'Structure' and 'Power' in 'Critical Social Realism': A Positive and Reconstructive Critique" (*Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour* 21:2 pp.221-249). Although as the title suggests Heikki is more concerned with Action, Power, and Structure, i find the greatest sympathies with the discussion of external and internal relaions in understanding not only structure but also agency. Looking forward to futher discussion... hans despain University of Utah despain-AT-econ.sbs.utah.edu ------------------
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