From: "Doctor Spurt" <SPURRETT-AT-mtb.und.ac.za> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:23:21 GMT +0200 Subject: BHA: Re: the possibility of naturalism Hello again, First some chunks of thread, then some comments. A] CHUNKS >> = Colin > = Tobin >> Much as I agree with the general thrust of Tobin's remarks, I have >> one serious quibble. i would object to seeing the TD/ID as >> basically a temporal >> distinction. For, a given theory, say theory X, is still a set of >> transitive >> objects of another set of intransitive objects Y1, Y2---Y8. Such a >> theory, >> that is theory X, only itself becomes an intransitive object when it >> itself >> becomes an object for discussion or scientific appraisal (this >> doesn't mean >> that the theory does not exist or have real effects). But even >> though our >> theory of theory X - theory Z - has as its object of inquiry theory >> X, theory X is still a set of transitive objects in relation to >> the objects >> Y1, Y2-----Y8 and no amount of temporal distortion makes it >> otherwise. This >> distinction is needed if we are to retain our fallibility. Confused? >> join the club. > I think what you're saying is this: let's pretend I'm a sociologist > (and here I thought I gave up acting years ago--I'm such a liar!). > I'm studying the > current practice of Dr Frankenstein, a noted microbiologist. For me, > Dr F's > scientific activity and theories are intransitive; for Dr F, they're > transitive. Yes? Okay, now you say this does not involve a temporal > distinction, correct? Hm. For Dr F, of course, what he's done and > what he's > thought are still part of what he is *doing*, in the present, and > thanks to > the prospect of discovery, are capable of transformation at any > moment (more > or less). But *I* can only study what Dr F has actually *done*, and > that's in the past (even if the very recent past, say two > milliseconds ago). If Dr > F suddenly gets devoured by his monstrous pet skin-eating virus, I > still have > an object of study. The unfortunate Dr F, of course, no longer has > an object > of study at all. (Bela Lugosi laugh here, and in the background, > Mick Jagger > singing "T-i-i-i-ime is on my side--yes it is!") Anyway, my point is > that nothing can be an object of study until it enters the past. > One cannot study the absolute present moment. B] COMMENTS I must admit my first reaction was to agree with Colin, and support the quibble. In fact I had half written a reply yesterday on that very point. I still agree, but when I got in this morning and saw Tobin's response my attitude to the details changed somewhat. Point 1: I agree with Colin, insofar as I do not think that the TD/ID distinction should be understood as a temporal one. What the distinction marks is the difference between things which are independent of humans (or some particular humans) and things which are not. Point 2: I agree with Tobin that _in general_ we can expect a transitive object which is "about" some intransitive one to come into being, if at all, only after the intransitive. (I am not so sure that the two could not exist simultaneously, though, and can imagine cases where some mechanism is proposed in a theory at some time T, where at time T no such mechanism really operates, but by virtue of people believing the theory changes in behaviour take place such that at some time after T the mechanism is really effective. I am told that there is a proper name for a version of this phenomena in economics. Here the transitive _in a sense_ comes first.) Point 3: The words "in a sense" in the last point are very important, and I think that we are all in danger of eliding two senses of object in our discussion here. It is crucial to remember that the generative mechanisms contained in a theory, which would have to be intranstive for the theory to be "true" in any simple sense are not themselves intransitive. Put another way the "real" mechanisms in the full sense of real will not in general be a part of our theory. [This is not necessarily the case, although there are no extra-transitive identity criteria which would settle the question even if we were correct...] So returning to Tobin's example: > I'm studying the current practice of Dr Frankenstein, a noted > microbiologist. For me, Dr F's scientific activity and theories > are intransitive; for Dr F, they're transitive. Well, up to a point. Still, at least two things need to be said. Thing one: Major parts of Doctors F's (please, call me Victor) work must be relatively intransitive otherwise he would not be engaged in science at all. This applies both to his experiments which must combine intervention and non-interference so as to hold out the chance of being informative, and to his theories which he must formulate in such a way as to become objects about which he (and other scientists) can think, which gives them a kind of intransitivity as well. Thing two: We need to be careful when we say Doctor F's activity and theories are intransitive for our thespian sociologist. This is because these phenomena are not given to us raw as data for study, but as we all know are partly constituted as objects of thought by our existing outlook and expectations. We don't "have" the intransitive objects, but as critical realists we recongise that there are such things even though we do _not_ have them. All the objects we have are transitive, otherwise we would be naive realists. Cheerio, David Department of Philosophy, UND -------------------------------------------------------- Recipe of the week: SPAM extract Place 2 cans of Spam in 1/2 litre of Vodka for 2-3 weeks in a cool place (i.e. fridge). Strain off chunks using a 100 micron filter (ie cheese cloth). serve immediately... --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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