From: "Marshall Feldman" <marsh-AT-uri.edu>
Subject: RE: BHA: cr and social science
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:32:48 -0500


Ruth,

Forgive me because although I'm very interested in this thread, I've not had
time to follow it. So what I'm going to say may be covered in a more recent
posting.

I think to answer part of your question one has to bear in mind that RB is
probably distinguishing social from behavioral sciences. Properly thought
out, the "social" is the emergent property of individuals and their
relations. I seem to recall that he goes into this in some depth in PON and
discusses social structures. But in _Reclaiming Reality_ he makes this very
clear in the TMSA (p. 77). The one thing I'm not entirely sure of is how he
conceives of social structures -- i.e. whether they're the emergent
properties of something else or whether they're at a lower level and give
rise, through their own emergent properties, to society and things at the
higher level.

If you bear this in mind, then the kinds of experiments one finds in
psychology are besides the point. Even quasi experiments, like the famous
Connecticut Speeding Crackdown that Campbell uses as his model for a
quasi-experiment, are behavioral rather than social experiments. Perhaps the
closest we come to truly social experiments are systematic historical
changes (the Russian Revolution) or deliberate attempts to create new,
perhaps utopian, societies (Israeli kibbutzim).

	Marsh

	Dr. Marshall Feldman, Associate Professor
	Department of Community Planning and Landscape Architecture
	94 West Alumni Avenue, Suite 1
	204 Rodman Hall
	The University of Rhode Island
	Kingston, Rhode Island 02881-0815

	Tel.	401.874.5953
	Fax	401.874.5511
	Email:   marsh-AT-uri.edu
	http://www.uri.edu/cels/cpl/marsh.html


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> [mailto:owner-bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu]On Behalf Of Tone
> Skinningsrud
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 1:17 PM
> To: bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> Subject: Re: BHA: cr and social science
>
>
> I would also welcome further discussion/clarification of this issue, as
> Bhaskar himself in RTS refers approvingly to Piaget, who bases his
> cognitive theories on experiments with children. Also Archer, in
> her recent
> book, makes extensive use of Piaget's work.
>
> The argument about the impossibility of creating closed systems
> where human
> beings are involved, to my understanding, is that human beings
> are creative
> and therefore cannot be expected to remain 'constant' during an
> experiment.
> One of the two necessary conditions of closed systems being that
> there must
> be no spontaneous changes in the object under study (Collier).
>
> However, if experiments with humans (involving their cognitive capacities)
> cannot be constructed as closed systems, how can we use the knowledge
> produced by such experiments?
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
> Tone
>
>
>
> At 11:12 04.02.02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >There is a really basic point that I am all of a sudden very unclear
> about.  It's this: in PON, Bhaskar says that in the social sciences it is
> impossible to create artificially closed systems -- as is, by contrast,
> possible in the natural sciences.  It is impossible, it seems, because,
> social phenomena only manifest themselves in open systems (something like
> that is the exact quotation).
> >
> >Now my question is: Why?  Or, more specifically, Why according
> to Bhaskar?
>  [I make this distinction not because I believe that if Bhaskar says it,
> it's true, but because I am trying to figure out exactly what it is that
> Bhaskar says.]
> >
> >So: experimentation is impossible in social science.  This because
> structures (the proper object of social science, as opposed to psychology,
> according to RB) are such that they only manifest themselves in open
> systems.  Why?
> >
> >Plus, is the argument against the possibility of experimentation in the
> psychological sciences different at all, given the differences between
> structures and agents?
> >
> >Any thoughts welcome!
> >
> >Warmly,
> >Ruth
> >
> >
> >
> >     --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >
> >
>
>
>      --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>



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