File spoon-archives/bhaskar.archive/bhaskar_2002/bhaskar.0205, message 13


Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:57:46 +0100
From: Mervyn Hartwig <mh-AT-jaspere.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: BHA: path dependence, critical realism and marxism


Hi Dick,

>5.  A condition of ecumenical discourse is a desire to understand the 
>other, rather than to convert him or her to my beliefs and values.  (I 
>regard this as a loving attitude, but not sexually loving.[I know, "what 
>the fuck does love have to do with socialism?")

Adrian Mitchell means by the line you quote in parenthesis, of course,
that love in your sense has *everything* to do with socialism. You seem
to imply the opposite. (Forgive me if I've got you wrong.) In more
technical terms what you're on about seems to be what Bhaskar calls
'assertorically sensitised solidarity' with the 'concrete singularity'
of the other. ('Assertoric': 'in accordance with the agent's wants, in a
potential dialectic of wants, needs, and interests' (DPF: 221)). 

Mervyn


Richard Moodey <moodey001-AT-mail1.gannon.edu> writes
>Hi Marsh,
>
>It might be that we have reached one of those very important "agree to 
>disagree" points in a discussion.  I'll try to state my some elements of my 
>position in as non-orgiastic and non-metaphorical way as possible.
>
>1.  Ideas do not spread themselves, but are spread only through human 
>communication -- "agency".
>2.  Some of the most powerful ideas have been either religious ideas or 
>non-religious ideas that are religiously held.  "True believers" can be 
>religious atheists or agnostics.
>2.  Humans do not "share" meanings, norms, and values directly -- senders 
>of messages must express them in symbols (not exclusively verbal) and 
>receivers of the messages must interpret the symbols.
>3.  Both misunderstandings and disagreements are common, and commonly confused.
>4.  In dealing with misunderstandings and disagreements, I prefer what I 
>call "ecumenical discourse" to violence, whether symbolic or physical.
>5.  A condition of ecumenical discourse is a desire to understand the 
>other, rather than to convert him or her to my beliefs and values.  (I 
>regard this as a loving attitude, but not sexually loving.[I know, "what 
>the fuck does love have to do with socialism?")
>6.  There are times when this condition cannot be met.
>7.  Sometimes people fight because of real conflicts of material interests, 
>rather than over differences of belief or values.   We all agree (probably) 
>any beliefs can be turned into ideological justifications of interests.
>8.  At other times, true believers really do fight over differences of 
>belief or values.
>
>Regards,
>
>Dick
>
>At 10:07 AM 05/02/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>I'm not sure this orgy of sexual and religious metaphors and similes is that
>>helpful. What we're talking about is an approach to understanding the world
>>that we think is both more valid and more liberating than other, commonly
>>accepted approaches. Perhaps we ought to be looking at the Enlightenment or
>>20th century socialist revolutions to understand better how such ideas
>>spread and achieve their purchase. In other words, what are the causal
>>powers of ideas and how do they achieve such powers?
>>
>>         Marsh Feldman
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>> > [mailto:owner-bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu]On Behalf Of Richard
>> > Moodey
>> > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:24 AM
>> > To: bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>> > Subject: Re: BHA: path dependence, critical realism and marxism
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Mervyn,
>> >
>> > To my assertion:
>> >
>> > > >Our discourse should be ecumenical, not
>> > > >evangelical.
>> >
>> > You reply:
>> >
>> >
>> > >Isn't this is a missionary position?
>> >
>> > Only metaphorically.  It is "making love" face-to-face, but restricted to
>> > verbal exchanges.  All parties -- because more than two can participate,
>> > the analogy to the classic missionary position breaks down badly --
>> > sincerely refrain from trying to convert one another.
>> >
>> > But, I have to admit that in one sense, you've got me.  I would
>> > like to be
>> > able to convert holy warriors of all kinds from spreading their
>> > beliefs by
>> > fire and sword to non-violent practitioners of ecumenical discourse.  So,
>> > even though I gave up being a missionary for Roman Catholicism about
>> > thirty-five years ago, when I stopped studying to become a Jesuit
>> > priest in
>> > India and Nepal, I am still trying to convert people to a more ecumenical
>> > way of holding their different beliefs.  And I recognize that many people
>> > believe that they are called by God or by the forces of history
>> > to wage war
>> > against the unbelievers.
>> >
>> > It seems to me that CR can provide a valuable critique of the various
>> > "manichean" fantasies that history is a great battle of the
>> > forces of good
>> > against the forces of evil.  That is not how I read Bhaskar's analysis of
>> > dialectic.  Those who subscribe to a manichean world view cannot agree to
>> > engage in ecumenical dialogue with those whom they regard as the
>> > agents of
>> > some kind of Satan.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Dick
>> >
>> > Yes, and no.   It is a way of conversing with those with whom one
>> > disagrees.  It requires respecting the other, and the other's beliefs,
>> > without becoming an "ecumaniac" -- one who thinks everyone else's beliefs
>> > are better than his own.  Ecumenical discourse has its limits.
>> > In the most
>> > obvious case, I can't respect the beliefs of the holy warriors
>> > who believe
>> > that I should be killed because I don't believe as they do.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >      --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>      --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---

-- 
Mervyn Hartwig
Editor, Journal of Critical Realism (incorporating 'Alethia')
13 Spenser Road
Herne Hill
London SE24 ONS
United Kingdom
Tel: 020 7 737 2892
Email: <mh-AT-jaspere.demon.co.uk>

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There is another world, but it is in this one.
Paul Eluard



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