File spoon-archives/bhaskar.archive/bhaskar_2002/bhaskar.0211, message 8


From: "dbwanika" <dbwanika-AT-uganda.co.ug>
Subject: Re: BHA: P/T inconsistency, Open/Closed World- Truth of things & Perspectival Switch
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:40:55 +0100


Listers 

A good Samaritan  has helped with a some few answers which I felt i
should put before the forum for further examination .  I hope you will
be kind and help me with some more views otherwise i will get stuck.

Bracketed statements are the replies to my questions I asked in my
previous article of today

thank you again for your kindness,


bwanika

------

  Much ink has been spilled on Fordism - and indeed organisation/al
     economics and sociology, now being supplanted with its cousin:
licensed
     organisational psychotherapy and social competence, to solve
seemingly
     underlying structurally embedded systems, in Bhaskar's "structural
     sins" of Max Weber's bureaucracy. From the origins of
disintegrating
     family to the economy and society, at a Popperian falsification
     disjuncture. (reductionism)
     Think of two statements re:Popper; " it is moving", and "it is
changing"
     which implies that, it is moving, it is changing or doing both at
once.
     The problem arises when either of the statement is an alethic truth
or
     truth of things.

-----

R     [I cannot see how asking whether or not the statement is an
"alethic truth" 
R    adds anything to simply asking whether or not it is "true."]

--------
     If we thought of let us say creating jobs, how exactly does the
state do
     it within a system of very few choices - the world is open the
system is
     closed. Build more roads, more buildings, parks, more machines, or
     diverse machines with all faces, shapes and tribes, fashion and
tastes-
     a vicious circle a closed system.

---------

R     [Neither a vicious circle nor a "benign circle" necessarily
implies a 
R    closed system.  In systems theory, there can be either positive or
negative 
R    feedback loops, and the predominance of negative loops over a
period of 
     time does not necessarily mean that the system is closed.  For
example, in 
     humanly created systems such as you are writing about, above,
storms, 
     droughts, invasions, or even new inventions can enter the process,
because 
     it cannot be "closed off" from the interference of such external
forces.]

-------

     Citizens, why are automated assemblies lines generating
(un)employment
     at the same time creating enormous profits and on the one hand all
time
     low wages. Bhaskar Dialectic 1993:233
     Is this another "epistemologically fallacious" misinterpretation,
     misunderstanding or misrepresentation of society as opposed to
state
     institutions? It is up to you who have spent a life time reading
into
     these things nature to correct me.
-----

R     [I would not agree that it is the assembly lines that are
generating 
R     unemployment or low wages, but that capitalists and their managers
are 
     continually seeking ways to increase profits, and that one of the
best ways 
     to do this is to lower their labor costs.  Mechanization and
automation 
     have been standard ways of reducing labor costs, as has been moving 
     operations to places where labor costs are cheaper.  Imo, to say
that 
     automated assembly lines cause unemployment and low wages is to
fall into 
     the fallacy of reification.]












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