File spoon-archives/bhaskar.archive/bhaskar_2003/bhaskar.0311, message 133


Subject: RE: BHA: Flourishing, Aristotle, etc.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:50:38 -0000
From: "Bailey,DJ  (pgr)" <D.J.Bailey-AT-lse.ac.uk>


hi Jamie,

isn't this the implication of your argument - what has occurred throughout history was always destined to do so.

I read Capital (and in particular the reproduction schema in the second half of volume 2, and the tendency of the rate of profit to fall in volume 3) to be an argument about the irrationality, inefficiency and self-defeating nature of production based on individual ownership.  Yet, the opposite - collective, common ownership (communism) - was nowhere in existence.  Does this mean that Marx was wrong to criticise capitalism because there were no counter-historical examples of communism?

Further, if you don't agree with my use of counter-historical examples, doesn't this meant that we are always destined to study the positive? Whereas one of the central aims of DPF was to make the positive appear 'as a tiny, but important, ripple on the surface of a sea of negativity'.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: jamie morgan [mailto:jamie-AT-morganj58.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: 14 November 2003 18:31
To: bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: Re: BHA: Flourishing, Aristotle, etc.


Hi, this point seems to underplay the complexity of evolution and also
dynamic human systems - when primates left the trees their capacity to
coordinate (which may mean pure cooperation, or anylevel along a line to
coordination or coherence through social orders of domination acquiesence,
subordinattion, subserveience) in competition with other species and other
groups of primates was one might speculate a prime reason for their success,
selection and breeding survival - competition of one kind (perhaps there are
other kinds) at least (aggressive inter/intra species annhilation) would
therefore be integral (just as the capacity for social coherence and
coordination which may or may not be what you eman by cooperation would be);
to at the very least our early history and could surely not be described as
stunting development in an absolute ahistorical fashion - it would (and this
is only speculation) simply be a basic facet of how sociality developed with
early primates in accordance with environment.
Moreover I'm not sure what you mean by a counter-historical example of a
society without competition - are there are any historical examples of these
or are you suggesting we imagine one in counter to history?

Jamie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bailey,DJ (pgr)" <D.J.Bailey-AT-lse.ac.uk>
To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: BHA: Flourishing, Aristotle, etc.


Surely cooperation presumes the absence of competition/conflict (at least in
the specific relationship that you are describing).  To achieve one requires
the absence of the other - therefore I would argue that they are indeed in
competition/conflict with each other.

If I want to create a cooperative society it requires that I absent forms of
competition/conflict within that society.  I am therefore in conflict with
conflictual behaviour/relationships.

to go back to jamie's point, then, I would argue that competition and
conflict may have co-existed; but that competition always requires the
imposition of constraints upon those with whom we compete, and therefore
competition (whilst seemingly contributing towards the evolutionary
progression of humanity) may actually have contributed towards the stunting
of humanity's development if we compare it to the counter-historical example
of a society without competition.

-----Original Message-----
From: Moodey, Richard W [mailto:MOODEY001-AT-gannon.edu]
Sent: 14 November 2003 14:51
To: bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: RE: BHA: Flourishing, Aristotle, etc.


Hi Jamie,

You wrote:

Might it not be that competition and aggression has proved successful within
evolution as much as cooperation and thus both have had their place in
species evolution and also in human social development - implying that both
are aspects of nature and of society where the concept of primacy or triumph
is not necessarily the best way of think about what we want to take from
each?


I reply:

Well put.  Cooperation, competition, and conflict are aspects of nature and
society.  None can "triumph" over the others, as they are not, themselves,
in competition or conflict.

Regards,

Dick

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh-AT-jaspere.demon.co.uk>
To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: BHA: Flourishing, Aristotle, etc.


> Hi Dick,
>
> But it hasn't, i.e. notwithstanding inter-(and intra-)specific
> aggression, species have proliferated and flourished. If aggression
> dominated both inter- and intra- the whole show would come to a halt
> (as of course it might yet owing to contingent aggression within a
> contingently powerful species, i.e. ours; it would remain the case
> that there could be no process of biological evolution if love did not
> triumph over evil, Eros over Thanatos).
>
> Mervyn
>
>
>
>
>  "Moodey, Richard W" <MOODEY001-AT-gannon.edu> writes
> >Hi Mervyn,
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >"One can argue that, given that biological evolution proceeds, it
> >must be the case that co-operation, care etc prevails over
> >self-preservation, aggression etc within species."
> >
> >But isn't it possible that conflict among (between)different
> >communities may prevail over co-operation among (between)them, even
> >as this conflict requires high degrees of co-operation within each of
> >these communities?
> >
> >I don't write this out of any basic disagreement with the other
> >arguments for the either the existence or the fundamental goodness of
> >something (not yet fully specified, perhaps) that we can point to
> >with the
heuristic
> >concept, "human nature."
> >
> >Regards,
> >
>
>
>
>      --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>



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