File spoon-archives/bhaskar.archive/bhaskar_2003/bhaskar.0311, message 215


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:15:56 +0000
From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
Subject: Re: BHA: Democracy is capitalism


Marsh/James

Agreed very illuminating, I especially enjoyed the reference to the 
'totalitarian past' and the complete avoidance of addressing the present.

steve

James Daly wrote:

>Hi Marsh
>Thanks for the illuminating reference, with its further references to
>Milton Friedman et al.  The lack of a sense of irony about the
>original "modest proposal" is unbelievable. So is the unconsciously
>ironic *deference* to the new constitution makers -- presumably the
>Cuban people is meant, but in reality, if it were to happen, it would
>be Bush and his successors.
>
>********************************************
>
>"We submit in this article a modest proposal concerning how and how
>much private property rights ought to be protected in a post-Castro
>Cuban constitution.  It is a modest proposal because we address it, in
>a spirit of cooperation and deference, to those who will have the
>historic function of creating a new political and economic system for
>Cuba."
>
>**********************
>
>James
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Marshall Feldman" <marsh-AT-uri.edu>
>To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
>Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 10:51 PM
>Subject: RE: BHA: Democracy is capitalism
>
>
>  
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>You might want to look at
>>http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/Research_Studies/GaribaldiDRAFT.doc.
>>
>>The Miami Cuban right equates private ownership of the means of
>>    
>>
>production
>  
>
>>with "democracy."
>>
>>Marsh Feldman
>>
>>    
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>>>[mailto:owner-bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU]On Behalf Of
>>>      
>>>
>James Daly
>  
>
>>>Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 1:47 PM
>>>To: bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>>>Subject: Re: BHA: Democracy is capitalism
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Steve, Howard, DJ, Dick, Mervyn
>>>
>>>Sorry not to have got back sooner.
>>>
>>>Steve, I was responding to your extracts from Fuller as well as
>>>      
>>>
>your
>  
>
>>>own statements. I'm all for a philosophy of science critique of
>>>      
>>>
>Kuhn,
>  
>
>>>but equally for one of Popper.
>>>
>>>I can't see any harm in a Hippocratic-style oath for scientists,
>>>      
>>>
>but I
>  
>
>>>just haven't thought about it, which is why I didn't bring it up.
>>>
>>>The references to Popper as a social democrat seemed to be an
>>>      
>>>
>argument
>  
>
>>>against the possibility of his being a cold warrior.
>>>
>>>The statement that "Democracy is capitalism" was meant to be
>>>provocative, but for a very good reason: it is true in practice.
>>>      
>>>
>When
>  
>
>>>Bush says he is bringing democracy to Iraq, he means
>>>      
>>>
>privatisation,
>  
>
>>>neoliberalism. The essence of socialism is found in Marx's attack
>>>      
>>>
>on
>  
>
>>>the Young Hegelians who exalted the bourgeois political struggle
>>>      
>>>
>for
>  
>
>>>the rights of man as worthy of human dignity, and despised
>>>      
>>>
>workers'
>  
>
>>>socio-economic struggles as mere stomach filling. Marx pointed out
>>>that the dominant "right of man" was the bourgeois right to
>>>      
>>>
>private
>  
>
>>>ownership of the means of production, wherewith to exploit the
>>>working-class. In "On the Jewish Question" he attacked the
>>>      
>>>
>bourgeois
>  
>
>>>manipulation of their con-trick separation of "state" and
>>>      
>>>
>"market",
>  
>
>>>and argued that humanism would mean reuniting the political and
>>>      
>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>economic as our "forces propres".
>>>
>>>I have written at some length on this in an article "Marx, Love
>>>      
>>>
>and
>  
>
>>>Enlightenment", which has been brought up-to-date and can be seen
>>>      
>>>
>at
>  
>
>>>this URL.
>>>
>>>http://groups.msn.com/JamesDalyandFriends/documents.msnw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
>>>To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
>>>Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 11:52 AM
>>>Subject: Re: BHA: Democracy is capitalism
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>Said "democracy is capitalism" - this is nonsense. Even Alain
>>>>        
>>>>
>Badiou
>  
>
>>>>does not make such a draconian statement - he puts forward the
>>>>acceptable and arguable position the parlimentary politics as
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>practised
>>>      
>>>
>>>>today merely functions to make things work better by "turning
>>>>        
>>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>>spectacle of the economy into the object of apathetic, thought
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>obviously
>>>      
>>>
>>>>unstable public consensus." Badious's position is intelligent
>>>>        
>>>>
>and
>  
>
>>>>sensible and does not deny that 'democracy' has a  place, just
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>radically
>>>      
>>>
>>>>critiques the way that the institutions function in our social
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>systems.
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Whereas James denies that democracy has any place in a radical
>>>>understanding of society. [How nice to be so avant-garde...]
>>>>
>>>>Science should be more democratic and accountable - of course it
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>isn't,
>>>      
>>>
>>>>perhaps that's why it consistently fails to live up to our
>>>>expectations... (When I was a teenager I was told that human
>>>>        
>>>>
>beings
>  
>
>>>>would have reached Mars by now - instead they produce better
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>lipsticks
>>>      
>>>
>>>>and robot dogs for Sony...)
>>>>
>>>>regards
>>>>steve
>>>>
>>>>James Daly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Hi Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>"a social-democrat like Popper could hardly be expected to
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>agree
>  
>
>>>with
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>Marx and Hegel" -- in fact they were prepared to annihilate the
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>planet
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>to to defend capitalism and save the world from communism.
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>Perhaps
>  
>
>>>he
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>should have called for social democrats "to adopt a version of
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>>>Hippocratic Oath to restrain their propensity for harm."
>>>>>
>>>>>One example of Popper's dishonest "scholarship" is his
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>misquoting
>  
>
>>>Marx
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>on a crucial issue as saying he wished to discover the "laws of
>>>>>society", whereas Marx said "the laws of modern society", i.e.
>>>>>capitalism.
>>>>>
>>>>>One can be a Cold Warrior without being paid for it, but
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>acquiring
>  
>
>>>the
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>status of a Cold War manual certainly helps a book's sales, as
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>it
>  
>
>>>did
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>Isaiah Berlin's.
>>>>>
>>>>>" '... to make science game-like and democratic as possible...'
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>".
>  
>
>>>>>Science is not game like or democratic: games theory is just
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>bourgeois
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>ideology; "democracy" is capitalism.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Popper's version of science is essentially dialectical...".
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>Popper
>  
>
>>>>>was always ferociously anti-dialectical, and his denial of
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>being a
>  
>
>>>>>positivist turned mainly on the philosophically minor grounds
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>of
>  
>
>>>being
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>a falsificationist instead of a verificationist, though in
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>addition
>  
>
>>>he
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>also implausibly said metaphysical statements could become
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>testable
>  
>
>>>>>hypotheses.
>>>>>
>>>>>"... pitting one hypothesis/theory against another over a
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>disputed
>  
>
>>>>>issue. This goes back to Athens, the model being Socrates model
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>of
>  
>
>>>>>questioning, constructed in the 18th/19th [this should
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>presumably
>  
>
>>>be
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>12th/13th] centuries as the 'academic practice of scholarly
>>>>>disputation' ". This is a frequently repeated but unconvincing
>>>>>ontogenesis of dialectic, which I think began with Plato's
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>Parmenidean
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>and Heraclides inheritance, and his practice of hierarchical
>>>>>classification.
>>>>>
>>>>>All the best
>>>>>
>>>>>James
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
>>>>>To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:36 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: BHA: Re: Re: Primacy of practice, sophistry, and
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>other
>  
>
>>>>>fun stuff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Mervyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Within the philosophy of science perhaps the biggest argument
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>of
>  
>
>>>the
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>century is between Kuhn notable 'The structure of`scientific
>>>>>>revolutions' and Popper -  like most  people on the left I
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>also
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>assumed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>that the below rationale was broadly correct - Fuller has done
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>a
>  
>
>>>>>>remarkably good job of throwing this presumption into
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>question.
>  
>
>>>>>>I am not concerned to defend Popper regarding the Open Society
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>or
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Poverty of Historicism, after all a social-democrat like
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>Popper
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>could
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>hardly be expected to agree with Marx and Hegel,  rather the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>interest I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>have is in Fuller's attempt to recover the philosophy of
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>'science'
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>'knowledge' from the predominance of the relativist Kuhn's
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>paradigm
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>shifts, 'where knowledge is adequate to its objects'. The
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>argument
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>goes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>that Popper '...took seriously both that science aspires to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>universal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>knowledge and that scientists - our representatives in this
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>project
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>are
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>inherently flawed and biased agents. The result was to make
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>science
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>game-like and democratic as possible...' But to clarify this
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>Popper's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>version of science is essentially dialectical pitting one
>>>>>>hypothesis/theory against another over a disputed issue. This
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>goes
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>back
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>to Athens, the model being Socrates model of questioning,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>constructed in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>the 18th/19th centuries as the 'academic practice of scholarly
>>>>>>disputation', from this derives the German dialectical
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>tradition
>  
>
>>>and
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>course Hegel and Marx.  An example of this dispute in a
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>non-science
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>area
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>is the Popper/Adorno dispute over positivism which when looked
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>at
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>shows
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>perhaps rather typically that they are remarkably similar...
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>both
>  
>
>>>>>>anti-positivists, both dialectical thinkers, one a marxist the
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>other
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>social-democratic liberal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A single issue it seems to me throws the outright rejection
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>into
>  
>
>>>>>>question:  "At the height of the Vietnam War, Karl Popper
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>called
>  
>
>>>for
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>scientists to adopt a version of the Hippocratic Oath to
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>restrain
>  
>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>their
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>propensity for harm."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>regards
>>>>>>sdv
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mervyn Hartwig wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't know about Kuhn, but anybody of intellectual
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>integrity
>  
>
>>>with
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>reasonable familiarity with Hegel and Marx who reads The Open
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>Society
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>and its Enemies and The Poverty of Historicism could scarcely
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>doubt
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Popper was a cold war warrior. He is not only sly, he is
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>dishonest,
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>deliberately suppressing key words and omitting context in
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>quotes
>  
>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>suit his cold warrior distortions and travesties. His
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>characteristic
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>method is to set up a scarecrow and demolish it as if it were
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>real
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>thing. To spring to his defence on this issue in the current
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>context can
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>only mean to defend the totalitarian commercialism (Collier)
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>that
>  
>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>Popper
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>himself promoted and which is now being imposed on the world
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>by
>  
>
>>>all
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>force necessary. (The very skies over London have been
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>emptied
>  
>
>>>for
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>god of totalitarian commercialism to arrive as I type
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>this...)
>  
>
>>>>>>>Mervyn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk writes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The fifties cold warrior labelling of Popper has been
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>challenged
>  
>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>in very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>interesting ways by Steve Fuller just recently in his book
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>Kuhn
>  
>
>>>vs
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>Popper.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As Fuller points out it is Kuhn who is in the pay of the
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>coldwar
>  
>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>warriors...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(this is not to disagree or comment on the thrust of the
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>below -
>  
>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>merely to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>spring to the defence of popper...)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>regards
>>>>>>>>sdv
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi Carroll
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Your punchline was strong -- that the purpose of reading
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>Plato's
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>>>Republic was to understand The Enemy.  But, only one? Why
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>is
>  
>
>>>his
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>name
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>on Lenin's tomb?  Your approach calls to mind the Fifties
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>cold
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>warrior
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sir Karl Popper's *Open Society and Its Enemies*, after
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>which
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>George
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Soros named his foundation. Slyly, Sir Karl manages to
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>suggest
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Plato's target is workers who must be kept in their place,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>whereas his
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>real target (see the Gorgias) is the unscrupulous
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>Nietzschean
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>rich who
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>want to exploit and rule.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It is nearly always forgotten that the society of Plato's
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>first
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>choice
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>is a communist one, and that the rest of the argument is
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>about
>  
>
>>>a
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>>>second-best society. And even the second-best society is
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>not a
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>class
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>society in Marx's sense, in that the philosopher rulers do
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>not
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>appropriate the surplus, but live a frugal life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I suppose the jury is out on whether Plato meant by
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>"gennaion
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>pseudos"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Big or Noble Lie, or both, but the myth of noble and base
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>metals
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>in the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>soul is an answer to the problem of legitimising the rule
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>of
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>reason, and defending it against the power of wealth. Lenin
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>had
>  
>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>same problem. It's quite a problem!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
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