From: "Howard Engelskirchen" <howarde-AT-twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: BHA: Missing posts
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:18:09 -0500


Hi Steve,

Actually, as Ruth can no doubt clarify, the meaning was that the emails did
not arrive in her email system.

The metal gold serves in an economy of generalized commodity exchange
economy as a sign of value.  It is the universal equivalent.  Now the fact
that gold has been selected out as a sign of value is not at all arbitrary.
Gold has qualities that correspond to the properties of value such that it
provides an adequate medium to represent what value is.  For example, gold
is homogeneous, easily divisible, enduring and a lot of labor is embodied in
a small amount, etc.  Few metals are as suitable.  Mercury I always thought
would be a great money commodity since it also is homogenous, easily
divisible, etc., and in addition  it has the virtue of being a poison so
that it would automatically take care of the rich.  But it never caught on.

Howard




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: BHA: Missing posts


> Tobin
>
> Actually the context is surely both Ruth's original post and Gunter's
> three responses - all of which assumed that 'I don't get your posts' had
> the same meaning, which not withstanding Ruth's intentions,  did not
> appear to be necessarily about the emails arriving in her email system.
>
> But notwithstanding this - I was in the statement about the 'arbitrary
> nature of the sign' merely following the Saussurian line and not
> attempting to redefine the signifier/signified structure. (Actually if I
> was to do so we would end up with the argument about the redefinition of
> one one side of the binary system being dominant and I have no
> particular desire to engage in such an argument). Perhaps things will be
> better if I clarify what I was thinking regarding a signs  arbitrarines
> -  for it is more complex than you suggest below - in that each sign
> when taken on it's own is absolutely arbitrary. It is with the human and
> non human need  for motivation that directly leads to classes of signs
> in which a relative arbitrariness rules.  This thesis is derived from
> the history of linguistics in which a given language system in its own
> internal structure does not force a given sign to be an imitation of the
> object which it supposedly represents. A sign if it was an imitation of
> the object could in fact be explained uniquely by itself, obviously
> completely seperately from all others. Linguistics has always tended
> towards the adoption of such an understanding of arbitrariness/analogy
> (at least, I think, the linguistics worth bothering about). To go back
> to relative arbitrariness - an example might be 'leftish' which recieves
> an additional motivation from the fact that it exists in a class that
> contains red-ish, right-ish, green-ish and so on, a class in which an
> additional  derivation, relationship is also found within the similar
> semantic content. In a very direct sense then the absolute arbitrary
> nature of a specific sign is tempered by the organisation of language.
> Is this saying the same thing as the below ? I suppose not as I have
> avoided the 'social' aspects of the below...
>
> But then my original amusement in relation to Gunter and Ruth exchange
> that 'I don't get your posts' could only mean 'I don't understand your
> posts Gunter' for obvious reasons...(I am beginning to regret the
> laughter it caused...)
>
> regards
> steve
>
>
> Tobin Nellhaus wrote:
>
> >Hi Steve--
> >
> >You've had many an interesting post, but unfortunately, on semiotics
you're
> >not so good.  It's true that there's an arbitrary relationship between
the
> >material aspect of a certain class of signs (e.g., a spoken or written
word)
> >and the concept that it's connected to, and partly in consequence many
signs
> >have multiple meanings.  (As most of you know, I often push the limits of
> >multiple meanings -- I know all sorts of things about ambiguity!)  But
you
> >cannot infer from that fact that *everything* about a sign is arbitrary,
> >particularly when (1) you consider all types of signs, and (2) you
interpret
> >the sign within its social, communicative context, including its
connections
> >to the intransitive domain.  Of course, once one places your comment that
> >"Whether or not Ruth meant one thing or another is irrelevant what
matters
> >is the arbitrariness" within its own social context of an online
discussion,
> >then one is left with several interpretive possibilities: perhaps you
think
> >everything Ruth says is irrelevant; or that what everyone says is
> >irrelevant; or that what you yourself say is irrelevant; or that the
pickle
> >in your ear swims the blue marauders richly.  I dunno, I mean you write
so
> >arbitrarily!
> >
> >Arguably,
> >
> >T.
> >
> >---
> >Tobin Nellhaus
> >nellhaus-AT-mail.com
> >"Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching": C.S. Peirce
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
> >To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
> >Sent: Saturday, 13 December 2003 5:07 AM
> >Subject: Re: BHA: Missing posts
> >
> >
> >Tobin
> >
> >The issue that you repeating in  the below note is that you are trying
> >to deny the arbitrary nature of language, and indeed all semiotic
> >systems.  Whether or not Ruth meant one thing or another is irrelevant
> >what matters is the arbitrariness
> >
> >steve
> >
> >Tobin Nellhaus wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Uh, Steve, I believe Günter had it right the first time -- Ruth had
> >>previously asked if she was missing posts (9 Dec), and clearly the
problem
> >>continues.
> >>
> >>Tobin
> >>
> >>---
> >>Tobin Nellhaus
> >>nellhaus-AT-mail.com
> >>"Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching": C.S. Peirce
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
> >>To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
> >>Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 6:08 AM
> >>Subject: Re: Re[2]: BHA: Missing posts
> >>
> >>
> >>Gunter
> >>
> >>The tedious three emails misreading 'get' from you suggest that down in
the
> >>outback you have nothing better to do.... (It's true i don't at the
moment
> >>
> >>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>am merely waiting for programs to run...)
> >>
> >>you are  the one who who needs a life... not understanding 'get' - i
> >>
> >>
> >assumed
> >
> >
> >>you were being obtruse, guess you were just trying to be insulting
> >>
> >>s
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Dear steve.devos,
> >>>
> >>>on Friday, 12 December 2003, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I understand Gunter's posts - he appears to be somewhat over literal
> >>>>though and imagines rather bizarrely that the word 'get' for example
> >>>>has a single meaning.  In this sense he is like Phil Walden a person
> >>>>out of time...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Get a life, Steve :-)
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>Günter
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Günter Minnerup
> >>>School of History
> >>>University of New South Wales
> >>>Sydney NSW 2052
> >>>Tel. (+61 2) 9385 3668 (work)
> >>>Tel. (+61 2) 9398 3646 (home)
> >>>mailto:g.minnerup-AT-unsw.edu.au
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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