File spoon-archives/bourdieu.archive/bourdieu_2001/bourdieu.0111, message 15


Subject: Re: Crucial Questions on Life: some sanity
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:28:43 +1300


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Alev,

> But your description of depression seems so heartfelt that I'll be list-bitch if it cheers you up?

No, I don't need cheering up.  But thanks for the offer. (smile)
Nor is this any type of confessional discourse, where no-one is allowed to publicly disagree with me because 'I've experienced depression, and none of you know what it's like'.  I'm not into holding anyone hostage.  I'd be fascinated to debate the matter. 


> Brain mapping   and delineating (whether there is) a difference between brain (organism) and > mind (experience) is central to pharmaceutical profits and psychiatry - prozac any one? does > serotonin=happiness? does unhappiness lead to a serotonin drop or is it caused by it? the
> future of cyberbrain modification etc is born also at the philosophy/technology interface.

No, you didn't say that antidepressants remove grief or cause happiness, but that seemed a pretty clear implication.  You stepped straight from prozac to serotonin to happiness.  "Does serotonin = happiness" therefore seems to ask if Prozac causes happiness. 

Prozac (fluoxitine hydrochloride) isn't about causing happiness.  It causes an alteration in the transmission of serotonin in the brain.  This aleviates depression. 

In answer to the question itself, does serotonin equal happiness, then, no, it doesn't.  There are plenty of people, whose serotonin works perfectly well, who aren't happy.  Or aren't happy all of the time.  There are other anitdepressant medications which work on other types of nuerotransmitters, and don't involve serotonin much, or at all, and that still work effectively.  Some of the more recent ones (more recent than Prozac, which is now twenty odd years old) act more quickly, and in different ways.  Prozac was just the first antidepressant which had few side effects for most people, and so it caught the public imaignation. 

But if we can run for a moment with the idea that it were the serotonin involved.  Does serotonin equal happiness?  By fixing the serotonin transmission, depression is alleviated, and one can feel happy; because of this it can be argued that serotonin makes you happy.  But part of the point of my last post was that depression doesn't only stop one from feeling happy, but from feeling sad as well.  Depression is not sadness; when depressed, one doesn't experience sadness or grief or sorrow.  And that's possibly more frightening than not experiencing happiness.  So it becomes eqaully reasonable to ask, does serotonin equal sadness?  And if you answered yes to the first question, then you also have to answer yes to this question.  Serotonin equals happiness and sadness.  And then no to the question, "Does unhappiness lead to a serotonin drop or is it caused by it?" No it doesn't lead to serotonin drop, no it's not caused by serotonin drop, becaues without effective serotonin transmission, one doesn't experience sadness either.  Only depression.  Which, to labour the point, is different from sadness. 

All of these questions are flawed.  They do invite a more useful and interesting question, which gets back to your original point about dilineation between mind and brain: is serotonin involved in in the experience of feeling, the experience of affect?  Yes.  What does this mean in relation to a delineation between mind and brain? 

Well, if you're holding a pool, I'll put five dollars on there being no delineation. 


Regards,
Anthony.



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: AlevAdil01-AT-aol.com
  To: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 4:56 AM
  Subject: Re: Crucial Questions on Life: some sanity


  sigmund 5 observed Amazing post that clarifies what depression is outside of academic "productive" work towards tenure!

  I'm not wholly clear what he means but academic work towards tenure sure feels close to depression 4 me right now ... as do short days in long winters in England.
  Anthony chided
  >Alev,
  >Prozac, and other antidepressant medications, don't cause 'happiness'.  
  >They create an absence  of depression.  Depression is not sadness, or 
  >grief, or sorrow.  Anti-depressants do not remove sadness or grief or 
  >sorrow.
  >
  True anthony but I didn't claim  it d id I said
  does serotonin=happiness? does unhappiness lead to a
  >serotonin drop or is it caused by it? in relation mind brain delineation. not in order to belittle or dismiss the hell of depression. 
  >  To get
  >Deluezian for a moment, it's a complete absence of affect, an inability to
  >experience affect.  It's really awful.  It's frightening just how much one
  >doesn't care about one's self.

  But your description of depression seems so heartfelt that I'll be list-bitch if it cheers you up?

  Alev
  >

HTML VERSION:

 
Alev,
 
> But your description of depression seems so heartfelt that I'll be list-bitch if it cheers you up?

No, I don't need cheering up.  But thanks for the offer. (smile)
Nor is this any type of confessional discourse, where no-one is allowed to publicly disagree with me because 'I've experienced depression, and none of you know what it's like'.  I'm not into holding anyone hostage.  I'd be fascinated to debate the matter. 
 
 
> Brain mapping   and delineating (whether there is) a difference between brain (organism) and > mind (experience) is central to pharmaceutical profits and psychiatry - prozac any one? does > serotonin=happiness? does unhappiness lead to a serotonin drop or is it caused by it? the
> future of cyberbrain modification etc is born also at the philosophy/technology interface.

No, you didn't say that antidepressants remove grief or cause happiness, but that seemed a pretty clear implication.  You stepped straight from prozac to serotonin to happiness.  "Does serotonin = happiness" therefore seems to ask if Prozac causes happiness.  
 
Prozac (fluoxitine hydrochloride) isn't about causing happiness.  It causes an alteration in the transmission of serotonin in the brain.  This aleviates depression. 
 
In answer to the question itself, does serotonin equal happiness, then, no, it doesn't.  There are plenty of people, whose serotonin works perfectly well, who aren't happy.  Or aren't happy all of the time.  There are other anitdepressant medications which work on other types of nuerotransmitters, and don't involve serotonin much, or at all, and that still work effectively.  Some of the more recent ones (more recent than Prozac, which is now twenty odd years old) act more quickly, and in different ways.  Prozac was just the first antidepressant which had few side effects for most people, and so it caught the public imaignation. 
 
But if we can run for a moment with the idea that it were the serotonin involved.  Does serotonin equal happiness?  By fixing the serotonin transmission, depression is alleviated, and one can feel happy; because of this it can be argued that serotonin makes you happy.  But part of the point of my last post was that depression doesn't only stop one from feeling happy, but from feeling sad as well.  Depression is not sadness; when depressed, one doesn't experience sadness or grief or sorrow.  And that's possibly more frightening than not experiencing happiness.  So it becomes eqaully reasonable to ask, does serotonin equal sadness?  And if you answered yes to the first question, then you also have to answer yes to this question.  Serotonin equals happiness and sadness.  And then no to the question, "Does unhappiness lead to a serotonin drop or is it caused by it?" No it doesn't lead to serotonin drop, no it's not caused by serotonin drop, becaues without effective serotonin transmission, one doesn't experience sadness either.  Only depression.  Which, to labour the point, is different from sadness. 
 
All of these questions are flawed.  They do invite a more useful and interesting question, which gets back to your original point about dilineation between mind and brain: is serotonin involved in in the experience of feeling, the experience of affect?  Yes.  What does this mean in relation to a delineation between mind and brain? 
 
Well, if you're holding a pool, I'll put five dollars on there being no delineation. 
 
 
Regards,
Anthony.
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: AlevAdil01-AT-aol.com
To: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: Crucial Questions on Life: some sanity

sigmund 5 observed Amazing post that clarifies what depression is outside of academic "productive" work towards tenure!

I'm not wholly clear what he means but academic work towards tenure sure feels close to depression 4 me right now ... as do short days in long winters in England.
Anthony chided
>Alev,
>Prozac, and other antidepressant medications, don't cause 'happiness'.  
>They create an absence  of depression.  Depression is not sadness, or
>grief, or sorrow.  Anti-depressants do not remove sadness or grief or
>sorrow.
>
True anthony but I didn't claim  it d id I said
does serotonin=happiness? does unhappiness lead to a
>serotonin drop or is it caused by it? in relation mind brain delineation. not in order to belittle or dismiss the hell of depression.
>  To get
>Deluezian for a moment, it's a complete absence of affect, an inability to
>experience affect.  It's really awful.  It's frightening just how much one
>doesn't care about one's self.

But your description of depression seems so heartfelt that I'll be list-bitch if it cheers you up?

Alev
>
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