From: "Erik Hoogcarspel" <jehms-AT-xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [BOU:] veil and politics
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:03:54 +0100


Well, Ozgur I think you see the problem of the veil from a very monolithic
perspective. There are different kinds of veil to begin with and it's not
only the veil. In Turkey you have the small veil in all it's variations
which is often accompanied by the 'pardessus' a very plump kind of overcoat
which covers all from neck to ankles, but also the full 'Ninja-outfit'. The
last one is most popular in the 'k'oranbelt' which runs from Bursa to Konya.
Many women just wear these things because everybody wears them. But
sometimes it's also because they cannot stand the 'k'orannic gaze', the
accusation of being an 'open' girl who's not fit for the production of pure
siblings of the tribe and a shame for the family. Mind you girls have been
killed for this! So don't say that it's a feminist thing.This gaze is
shrinking because of tourism and globalisation, but there's also a contrary
movement. Huge msoques are built from Saoudic money, but they remain empty,
even on a Friday I saw several times not more then twenty pairs of shoes
outside. Many small middle class people feel attracted by the cheap
promisses of safety and the easy way you can gain social capital in a
religious setting. Just show you're obeying the rules and you're just as
respectable (in Allah's eyes) as the president. This is not only a Turkish
or islamic movement, the same is happening in the U.S., China and India. In
Mongolia there's a new wave of christian conversions! The small middle
class, in Holland we call it 'the decent poverty', is very anxious to gain
or conquer as much capital as possible, because they've still the smell of
the gutter in their noses and are afraid of a setback. There's another group
of women who live abroad (and that's the one who's protesting in France) and
thse women are more or less homesick. They've the feeling that they're not
where they belong. So they make themselves an islamic or Turkish environment
and try to feel as the should feel. Only the Turkey or the islam in their
head is the one they remember, not the one which exists today. But they want
it, so they look for a very conservative imam who can play in their theatre.
But they're used by the religious leaders who smell power. The lack of
social capital of most immigrants draws them to the mosques and temples and
churches for the reason I mentioned. The religious leaders encourage their
feelings of being a stranger in a hostile society, because no power without
a war and no war without an enemy. Everything outside the mosque is a threat
for islam, so a threat for the group and calls for war. That's why the
problem of the veil is considered a real threat for the islam! If the veil
would be accepted it would be a first battle won in a long war which could
only end when islam would be a state religion in every country in the world.
The ayatollas and other religious leaders are all very old men which a great
hunger for social capital. In Holland two Maroccan boys went to Kashmir to
'help the islam'. They were send by their imam who had no idea what was
going on there and why. And of course they were killed without even firing a
shot.
Many Turkish immigrant women by the way are very confused. Some put on a
veil as soon as they get out of the plane in Turkey, others on the contrary
put it off! 
Many islamic immigrant men want too have it both ways. They try to get
married with a girl from the motherland, put her under a veil and then seek
a western mistress. Life ain't easy for a boy named Ahmed!
And, Ozgur please stop reading Taylor, he's a conservative catholic prick
who thinks that postmodernism is a kind of devilworship.

Happy 2004


erik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
[mailto:owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] Namens Ozgur Budak
Verzonden: zaterdag 3 januari 2004 23:01
Aan: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
Onderwerp: Re: [BOU:] veil and politics

I cannot talk about one monolithic attitude. There are many political,
religious or ethnic identities in Turkish society. Turkish modernization
(dominated mainly by educated, urbane middle classes living in big cities
like Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir) has been defining itself against islamic
medievalism for a long time. Kemalist paradigm used to identify all islamic
expression and ways of life as remnant of the premodern ages. That can be
understandable in the formating years of a republic where there is no strong
middle class to rest upon. However veil in Turkey has become a problem when
large masses from the newly raising islamic middle class demanded the same
opportunities for publicsphere like high education, professional
opportunities etc. woman who cover their head (turban not veil) are used to
seen as a premodern symbol most of the modernist cannot note that those
women in fact are part of a new urban professionals who has similar
reflexive sociological ontology other women experience in modern life. For
instance those women pursue an islamic expression, at the same time show
feminist emotion in house and public. claasical modernist paradigm cannot
appraciate this because , like French government , it defined modernity and
premodernity not interms of objective sociological, ethical and philosphical
arguments but ethnocebtric references intertwined with the collonial
realtion between west and east.

I hope this answers at least some part of your question regards Ozgur

--
EgeNet Internet Servisleri (http://mail.egenet.com.tr)


---------- Original Message -----------
From: John Evans <jevans-AT-eircom.net>
To: <bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
Sent: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 21:42:33 +0000
Subject: Re: [BOU:] veil and politics

> Dear Ozgur Budak
> 
> Can you say anything about women's attitude to the veil in Turkey? Do 
> attitudes distribute in ways that are homologous to what kind of
categories?
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> John Evans
> 
> on 03/01/2004 21:27, Ozgur Budak at budak-AT-egenet.com.tr wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Patrick, I was referring to Mr.Kaman's comment not yours. Just 
> > wanted to
let
> > you know.
> > 
> > Hi Daniel; Yes I am writing my phd dissertation on Turkish financial 
> > class habitus to provide some ontological ground for postfordist 
> > class
relations.
> > 
> > I don't work on islam; plus I don't have extensive knowledge on
literature on
> > islam but I do read Charles Taylor and other authors trying to 
> > construct
an
> > ethical perspectice between contesting identities and resisting 
> > against modernist ethnocentrism.
> > 
> > I am a bit emotional in such modernist bias against islam since I
experience
> > it daily in my country. The jacobin kemalist secularization and its
political
> > representatives pursue the same blind eye towards newly born islamic
middle
> > class and professional eager to be part of the modern life. Since
modernist
> > secularization (btw Turkish laicism ia very similar to French one) 
> > was defined within ethnocentric arguments they always label islamic 
> > identity
as
> > part of past, middle ages, something related to oppression and darkness.

What
> > was called "presentism" by Taylor. Nowadays some Turkish kemalists 
> > take support from French government's attitude againt religious 
> > identities. As member of the Turkish left I really don't understand left
politics'
> > reluctance on realizing the antidemocratic nature of this 
> > progressive violoence against other identitites
> > 
> > Best Regards
> > Ozgur
> > --
> > EgeNet Internet Servisleri (http://mail.egenet.com.tr)
> > 
> > ********************************************************************
> > **
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> 
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