From: "john.kaman" <john.kaman-AT-wanadoo.fr>
Subject: RE: [BOU:] l'affaire du foulard
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:26:26 +0100


Dear Par,

You write:

>>As an old 'leftist' I find it very strange how academic radicals nowadays
find any comfort or see any hope in islamic fundamentalism as a force
against the ills of capitalism, or US imperialism.<<

I find it more than strange; I find it perverse.  In France, there is a
tendancy to see things from the Arab point of view with regard to US
imperialism.  But there is a great distinction to be made between rooting
for the underdog (très au courant) and advocating integristist Islamic ideas
(something I have not really encountered in France).

If France did not have a long tradition of secular government, I might be
more easily persuaded that the prohibition on public displays of religion is
racist.  But France has more or less successfully kept religion from
creeping into politics since before the veil became an issue.  I see no
arguement that France should change its traditions to make a Muslim
exception for the oppression of women.  I also seriously doubt that someone
such as Baboul, raised in a Muslim culture, fully understands the reasons
why they are covering hair and body parts or whther their "choice" to do so
is real or imagined.  Your statement about sociology being the study of
things about which people have no choice is most apt in this regard.

I do not pretend to understand women, much less Muslim women who choose what
to a westerner is most likely to see as oppressive.  As for the comment that
I am more a journalist than a sociologist in commenting on the life around
me, I must say that Bourdieu did much the same.  In fact he refused to
produce his first works on Algeria without having lived and taught there so
he could come to know the culture on a personal level.  In the same way I
report only what I see in Paris universities in order perhaps to deepen my
understanding of the cultures.

A+

John

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
[mailto:owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU]On Behalf Of Par
Engholm
Sent: lundi 5 janvier 2004 12:50
To: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: RE: [BOU:] l'affaire du foulard


Salut John!
Merci pour ta lettre.
As an old 'leftist' I find it very strange how academic radicals nowadays
find any comfort or see any hope in islamic fundamentalism as a force
against the ills of capitalism, or US imperialism. But I think it reflects
somehow the deep seated defeatism which has spread among former apologets
for the actually existing socialism. Bourdieu in this sense did go against
the stream when he became politically more active towards the end of his
life.

So to the question of the foulard. I am not in favour of any ban on the use
of any religious symbol, culturally saturated clothes etc. But I think we
should be careful to see these garments as always 'freely chosen' (Remember
the words of Bertrand Russell, cited by Bourdieu as a preamble to Les
structures sociales del 'economie) 'While economics is about how people
make choice, sociology is about how they don't have any choice to make.')
or, worse, to see them as expressions of a discontent with an oppressive
western pornographied culture treating women as merely sexual objects. Of
course that may be the case, but I don't think that is the dominant pattern.

Batoul invokes the right of women to choose and describe the bans against
the veil in countries such as France and Turkey as 'racist and biased'. I
think this is not necessarily so. It may rather be a from of misdirected
solicitude for those women choosing to identify with the garment; the
legislators having a picture of the veil as being part of a more
ecompassing structure of oppression against women, with the other extreme
being so called 'honourable murders'. The intention of the legislators
would rather be to promote freeedom of choice for the women in question (I
don't consider the practical aspects of the ban against certain clothes in
certain occupations).

As Batoul writes, 'i simply felt that my body and hair were precious
objects that should only be shared with a few individuals who were
worthy'  and that Muslim women in these countries [France and Turkey] are
also being suppressed by being prevented from going to school and working
simply because they exercise their right to cover up and not reveal a
sacred part of their body.' One of the problems with the use of veils in
order to protect sacred bodily parts is that ti prevents women from
participating in mundane activities such as bathing in public places,
perfroming sports activities etc. I have worked as a gym teacher in upper
secondary school and this habit affectively blocked these young girls from
participating in class.

I am not under the impression that I 'know the mind of Muslim women', but I
find these practices as deeply problematic and it is all too easy just to
see the use of these as manifestations of free choices. As sociologists or
students of Bourdieu we would be wary of such simplistic liberal
depictions. As is written in the American declaration of independence, men
are created equal, but it is not written that we are created free. Freedom
is referred to as one of of the unalienable rights. This is quite an
important distinction. There is nothing 'natural' about freedom. It has as
on of its prerequisites the formation of institutions which can secure the
freedom of the citizens. Again to use an expression of Marx, 'The human
being is in the most literal sense a Zwon politikon not merely a gregarious
animal, but an animal which can individuate itself only in the midst of
society.'
(http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch01.htm)
To individuate oneself is not the same thing as expressing any essence,
other than perhaps s a way of developing the innate capacities,
potentialites we have for production, both material and mental. the goal
would be to form a society which would promote this kind of freedom. 'In
place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms,
we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the
condition for the free development of all.' (Marx/Engels, Communist
Manifesto).
Utopian perhaps, but we would have to question all the presuppostions of
the 'self-evident' truths and norms which we embrace and to questions the
traditions we are part of in order to ratinoally scrutinise all things  we
hold as sacred.

Lastly I am curious just to know how you Batoul view the fact that no male
in the cultures having the tradition of women covering up and protecting
sacred parts of their bodies would consider veiling their own bodies. Do
men lack sacred parts or precious objects?

Best regards,
Pär Engholm


At 12:01 2004-01-04, you wrote:
>Dear Par,
>
>You have expressed much more clearly than I the content of my approach.
And
>as long as people are expressing horror at ideas, let me re-express my own
>horror at the idea that Islam is a progressive force against Western
>imperialism, in this instance specifically, Islamic oppression of women.
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>[mailto:owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU]On Behalf Of Par
>Engholm
>Sent: dimanche 4 janvier 2004 11:26
>To: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BOU:] l'affaire du foulard
>
>
>Ozgur, Patrick and others,
>There is nothing progressive about any religion, Islam being no exception.
>If anyone is 'pseudoprogressive' that would be those who think that 'the
>veil' would be some battering ram against global capitalism, as Patrick
>would like to see it. It is too easy to embrace any movement which is
>'against' the west and to promote to a sublime place within an
>anticapitalist movement. Of course the usual denunciation of 'eurocentrism'
>is invoked, and of course Ozgur calls attention to the fact that he has
>been raised in a predominantly muslim society. Anything resembling appeals
>to universalist standards would be condemned as 'an oppressive hangover of
>the Enlightenment' or of eurocentism.
>
>I deeply regret the present state of leftist politics and 'progressive'
>ideas. In a sense, Patrick is right when he states that the veil(s), or
>'Islam today is the only significant social force standing in opposition to
>global capitalism' in the sense that the left has abdicated from any
>sensible standpoint against capitalism so that it has to degenerate into a
>new sort of cult of religious oppression as a viable force in this
>struggle. As Eagleton has commented on the postmodern vogue among left
>intellectuals: 'Radicals, like anyone else, can come to hug their chains,
>decorate their prison cells, rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic and
>discover freedom in dire necessity.' Likewise, the oppression of women
>taking the form inter alia of the compulsion to wear the veil, or the whole
>appeal to religion as a progressive force would amount to just this; the
>denial of the autonomy of rational men and women to determine their own
>course of life.
>
>Just to counter any more useless diatribes against any alleged
>eurocentrism, I would like to state that I am not denying the oppressive
>character of Christianity, and my position is that I do not respect any
>religion. They are all false and harmful.
>
>As Marx put it 150 years ago:
>
>Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and
>also the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the
>oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the
>spirit of spiritless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
>
>To abolish religion as the illusory happiness of the people is to demand
>their real happiness. The demand to give up illusions about the existing
>state of affairs is the demand to give up a state of affairs which needs
>illusions. The criticism of religion is therefore in embryo the criticism
>of the vale of tears, the halo of which is religion."
>(http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm)
>
>Best regards,
>
>
>At 20:12 2004-01-03, you wrote:
> >   sorry for my words guys but I am terrified to see such blatantly
> >eurocentric and pseudoprogressive attitude in a discussion list on
>Bourdieu.
> >I don't know how to start my critcism but since such an attitude is
beyond
> >my reach, I will not try. Just wanted to express my feelings as someone
> >raised in a predominantly muslim society.
> >
> >Ozgur
> >---------------------------------------------------------
>
>Par Engholm; Par.Engholm-AT-soc.uu.se
>Uppsala University, Dept. of Sociology
>Box 821; SE-751 08 Uppsala; SWEDEN
>Phone: +46 18 471 1180; Fax: +46 18 471 1170
>Home: Botvidsgatan 14 B; SE-753 27 Uppsala
>Phone: +46 (0)18 696348; Mobile: +46 709 783546
>http://www.soc.uu.se/staff/par_e.html
>
>
>--- StripMime Warning --  MIME attachments removed ---
>This message may have contained attachments which were removed.
>
>Sorry, we do not allow attachments on this list.
>
>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
>multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
>---
>**********************************************************************
>Contributions: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Commands: majordomo-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Requests: bourdieu-approval-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>
>**********************************************************************
>Contributions: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Commands: majordomo-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Requests: bourdieu-approval-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------
Par Engholm; Par.Engholm-AT-soc.uu.se
Uppsala University, Dept. of Sociology
Box 821; SE-751 08 Uppsala; SWEDEN
Phone: +46 18 471 1180; Fax: +46 18 471 1170
Home: Botvidsgatan 14 B; SE-753 27 Uppsala
Phone: +46 (0)18 696348; Mobile: +46 709 783546
http://www.soc.uu.se/staff/par_e.html


--- StripMime Warning --  MIME attachments removed ---
This message may have contained attachments which were removed.

Sorry, we do not allow attachments on this list.

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---
**********************************************************************
Contributions: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Commands: majordomo-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Requests: bourdieu-approval-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu

**********************************************************************
Contributions: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Commands: majordomo-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Requests: bourdieu-approval-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu