From: "john.kaman" <john.kaman-AT-wanadoo.fr>
Subject: RE: [BOU:] Re: veiling and islam
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:02:00 +0100


I'll take your word for that although I don't know how you got to be the
arbitor of what is sociology and what is journalism.  At any rate, the
question then becomes why they regard the turban as a cloth important as
their dress.  Their choice formed by years of religious bigotry and
oppression?  BTW, westerners do not run around naked.  Trust me on this one.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
[mailto:owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU]On Behalf Of Ozgur Budak
Sent: mardi 6 janvier 2004 16:11
To: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: Re: [BOU:] Re: veiling and islam



sociological indepth interviews


----- Original Message -----
From: john.kaman <john.kaman-AT-wanadoo.fr>
To: <bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: [BOU:] Re: veiling and islam


> >>I had the opportunity to make interviews with many girls (in the
> university) wearing turban. most of them regard turban as a cloth
important
> as their dress.<<
>
> Journalist or sociologist?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> [mailto:owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU]On Behalf Of Ozgur Budak
> Sent: mardi 6 janvier 2004 15:51
> To: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BOU:] Re: veiling and islam
>
>
>
> asking the motives beyond the acceptence of veil is legitimate; as long as
> you direct the similar question to the linkage between nakedness and
freedom
> in western culture. why do people prefer to show most of their body in
> western societies. This is equally a legitimate question in terms of
social
> ontology. However most of the westerners tend to  question only the former
> one. why? because their internalized easthetical realm combines individual
> freedom with the very body properties they used to live with.
>
> Wearing a baseball cap is not wearing a religious artefact. religious
> artefacts are parts of the deep psychological existence of a believer. If
> you arbitrarly take them off you cannot imagine the extend of harm and
> suffering you cause. I am talking about mature women who freely decide to
> wear veil, not as the result of a structured patriarchical power (and
> political system must do its maximum to provide freedom of choice to
women)
> . I had the opportunity to make interviews with many girls (in the
> university) wearing turban. most of them regard turban as a cloth
important
> as their dress. so arbitrary removal of the turban has the psychlogical
> effect off taking their dress. someone who limits his/her perception with
> western corporeality has hard time realizing this. That was what I meant
> when I talked about reflexive approach to sociology.
>
> Regards
> Ozgur
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Erik Hoogcarspel <jehms-AT-xs4all.nl>
> To: <bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:51 PM
> Subject: RE: [BOU:] Re: veiling and islam
>
>
> > Emrah
> >
> > What strikes me is that you see the world populated with monolithic
> > opinions, so everybody who is in favour of secularisation is fascist and
> so
> > on. I don't see myself as being part of one of those groups you mention,
> I'm
> > even not sure if anyone in this world qualifies.
> > My observations are the results of my travels through India and Turkye
and
> > my conversations with teachers, students, solars and even occasionally a
> > philosopher.
> > I see religion as a social powergame. Believers and priests in all
> religions
> > are to me very much alike from a sociologial point of view. I'm also not
> > very much interested in the question whether women have a 'right' to
wear
> a
> > specific piece of garment. Reflective sociology means to me to see
values
> > and normative judgements as products of social positions, my own
included.
> > So I take some distance. So what makes me tic is the question why people
> > would want to wear a veil or force others to wear it? What 's in it? I
> don't
> > believe one word of all the religious romantic poetry and myth which
says
> > htis is the will of a god or that this makes you closer to the god of
your
> > choice. Sociological motives are based on this world and on  the will to
> > power (Nietzsche was right) or on narcissism. This is noot cynical,
> because
> > I don't think there 's anything wrong with power in itself. I do hold
that
> > many human beings fool themselves in believing that they do holy things
> for
> > holy reasons.
> > In answer to your second question I cannot give you statistical
material.
> > It's no secret that there is a tremendous increase in small middle class
> in
> > India and that this has caused the recent rise of fundamentalist hindu
and
> > muslim movements. My impression is that this is also happening in
Turkye,
> > but in a lesser scale.
> > Thirdly and this maybe important, I think it's very well possible that
an
> > unfair law can have good consequences and vice versa. And I do think
that
> > it's not easy to prove that a law is fair or not, because God is dead,
> > there's nothing that can give an absolute norm for fairness. What's more
> > important is suffering, but it's doubtull if this problem of the veil
has
> > much to do with it.
> > A certain concept of fairness that can perhaps hold is that a law should
> be
> > compulsive to all. Well, in Holland some girls claimed the right to wear
a
> > niqab, a veil which covers the whole face, if they had got their way,
next
> > would be the right to wear a burqa. Girls who cover their faces can
easily
> > cheat during exams, and it's even very difficult to ascertain wether
they
> > understand what you're trying to explain them.
> > In India there are religious groups who never wear clothes, in Indonesia
> > there are men who wear penistubes (is this the genuine English word?).
> It's
> > impossible to have a president wearing this or to have teachers or
judges
> > walking around naked. It's a modernist myth that everbody is free and
has
> > the right to do anything that's not physically hurting others. What you
> wear
> > tells what you are. I cannot wear a baseballcap in the classroom and I
> want
> > my students also not to wear them inside. The same goes for the veil.
> >
> > erik
> >
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > [mailto:owner-bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] Namens Emrah Goker
> > Verzonden: zondag 4 januari 2004 22:55
> > Aan: bourdieu-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > Onderwerp: [BOU:] Re: veiling and islam
> >
> > Good thing my blurb provoked discussion. Bad thing the power of the
> > western-civilizationist doxa made its presence felt even on this list so
> > rapidly. It won't be admitted easily ("What me biased? My best friends
are
> > Muslim! The majority of Muslims are good!"), but read between the lines
of
> a
> > couple of messages sent, it is lurking there.
> >
> > I ally myself with Ozgur and Batoul and others who are sensitive about
the
> > injustices done towards North America's and Europe's Muslim immigrant
> > communities, as well as about the racisms perpetuated at the very moment
> by
> > the occupations of Iraq and Palestine.
> >
> > First, a couple of replies I felt urged to make:
> >
> > Erik --
> >
> > I couldn't put a finger on the reason for your reactionarism, maybe it's
> > your rhetorical style. First, dubbing the full-body veil as "ninja
outfit"
> > is common in the right-wing Turkish journalistic field (that includes
> > fascist, Kemalist, neoliberal and other western-civilizationist
> positions),
> > and well, for irreligious socialists like me, not to mention for most
> > religious citizens, men or women, it is regarded as a racist obscenity.
I
> > can only hope that you tried to distance yourself from those positions
> with
> > the quotation marks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Second, it would be useful to present some evidence for your other
claims
> > about the relation between class distinction and veiling, homesickness
and
> > veiling, non-integration and Islam, etc. Not that I am skeptical, I want
> to
> > learn. As it stands, your imagination of Islam in Europe is misleading:
as
> > if all generations of Muslim immigrants believe that Europe is a
> battlefield
> > and that they have to prepare themselves for a war. Now, this is
> > Berlusconi's or Blair's or Bush's vision of Islam, true, but how
> > sociological is it?
> >
> > Third, yes, oppression and inequality are properties of certain
relations
> > among Muslims. But the journalistic/scholastic argument used by
right-wing
> > French (or Turkish) Republicans to support discrimination against young
> > Muslim women ("We are trying to liberate them from their male
> fundamentalist
> > oppressors by removing their foluard/turban") is only an excuse for the
> > state elites' nationalist/irredentist angst. Moreover, it is not
difficult
> > to detect the homology between this civilizing desire of "liberation"
and
> > the imperialist one (the latter's consequences are still unfolding in
> > Afghanistan and Iraq). Sociologically, one needs to show, if they exist,
> the
> > properly "Islamic" mechanisms of oppression whose removal will
necessarily
> > end racism, xenophobia, injustice and inequality in, say, France. In
that
> > vein, one needs to be clear about what an appropriate path for
> "integration"
> >
> > of a Muslim immigrant in a European country.
> >
> > [Interviews in Bourdieu et. al.'s "The Weight of the World" frequently
> > expose the problems with the "integration of Arabs". Mahmood Mamdani
> further
> > exposes the other fallacy of the western-civilizationist distinction
> between
> > "good" and "bad" Muslims; see his "Good Muslim, Bad Muslim - An African
> > Perspective", http://www.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/mamdani.htm]
> >
> >
> >
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>
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