From: Kalapsyche-AT-aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:44:01 EST
Subject: Re: shifting the assemblage point


I may be way off the mark here, but isn't there a disturbing adherence to the
structures of models and copies inherent in most of these postings surrounding
shamanism?  In looking at these messages, I see the same question arise again
and again:  "Who is the *real* shaman?"  This is precisely akin to the
Platonic questions "What is the Sophist?"  "How can we differentiate the real
Philosopher from the Sophist?"  Rather than asking "which one?", the question
becomes "what is it?"  "ti to on".  This in turn indicates that the false
simulacrum of the shaman must be banished or selected out in some way.

But what of the "shaman" as a cypher indicating a field of intensities...  An
identity or style that can be taken up as a line of escape from the more
traditional juridical idenities we are forced into.  Shamanism, under this
sort of reading, would be a means of cultivating certain virtual tendencies in
order to bring about a difference.  And quite apart from the question of
whether this sort of "Shamanism" would be recognized by those that have been
"Shamans" in the past, it would nonetheless provide a strategic means of
upsetting certain molar assemblages that have overly organized a field of
play.  Or something like.


In a message dated 10/29/1998 3:30:40 PM EST, chaosmosis-AT-hotmail.com writes:

<< >There are 8 messages totalling 246 lines in this issue.
 >
 >Topics of the day:
 >
 >  1. Shamanism and self-designation (6)
 >  2. shamanism and self designation
 >  3. Art.
 >
 >----------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:35:40 +0000
 >From:    Malcolm Campbell <malcolmc-AT-SKIRNIR.DEMON.CO.UK>
 >Subject: Re: Shamanism and self-designation
 >
 >On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Susan Granquist wrote:
 >
 >> I found myself smiling as I ran through this thread, remembering when 
 I
 >> first ran into the on-line Asatru community about seven years ago to 
 find
 >> a discussion on seidh and being new to the medium got excited and 
 posted
 >> that I was a seidkona.  All Hel broke loose.  It was far easier to
 >> convince the "community" that I found myself involved in that I was a
 >> shaman.  It has continued to be a point of discussion as to whether 
 it is
 >> necessary to be a shaman to do "seidh" or if it equates with 
 shamanism.
 >> Still, few would question that I'm a seidkona either at this point.
 >
 >I guess due to how small the Asatru community is in Scotland, it been
 >easier for me the other way round. No-one, in all the time I've been
 >practicing seidr, has ever questioned that this is what I do. Not
 >personally, anyway, there have been internet debates on whether
 >seidr and shamanism are equated, certainly.. No-one has ever challenged 
 me
 >on any of the various labels I've used for myself in the seidr role.
 >Plenty people have questioned whether I'm a shaman, when others have 
 used
 >that word to describe me..
 >
 >> If "shaman" is an academic term for an individual who meets a 
 particular
 >> criteria I fail to see the reluctance that people have to use the 
 term.
 >
 >Perhaps because it implies a certain richness of relationship between
 >community and spirit-world that often doesn't exist. The 'solitary 
 shaman'
 >is to me, not a shaman - since serving a community is key.
 >
 >> First of all unless one is from the Tungus
 >> tribe the identification of being a "shaman" is strictly "academic" 
 as it
 >> is typical of an ethnic religion or spiritual traditions and there 
 should
 >> be another "term" for what one was.  Which is part of what I think is
 >> funny is that I was told I was a seidkona by my tutelary deities
 >> even knew they were Norse...and before I even knew what a shaman was.
 >
 >
 >Indeed. I just have too many words, and tend to use them in different
 >circumstances.. 'tunrida' was one of the first I picked up (which I
 >believe is German for fence-rider, but IVe never been able to get an
 >accuarate translation)
 >
 >The problem with seidr is, we're reconstructing something, with the 
 help
 >of the wights, and as such, we're also reconstructing some of the
 >vocabulary to describe it..
 >
 >> > That said, I don't critisize others who call themselves shaman. I 
 leave
 >> > that to the community they work in, and the spirits. (That said, if 
 it's
 >> > my community they are working in, I might well find a way of their 
 claim
 >> > being tested.. )
 >>
 >> One of the interesting things about being a shaman which we've 
 discussed
 >> is that a shaman *is* expected to be able to demonstrate their 
 calling by
 >> the deities/spirts to the community. One of the list requirements is 
 that
 >> if you say you're a shaman, you'd better be able to back it up.
 >
 >Back it up by meeting the academic criteria?
 >Personally, I don't believe I can make that challenge over the
 >internet. I cannot see someone's community through a few lines of text.
 >
 >--- Malcolm
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:45:07 EST
 >From:    SoulManor-AT-AOL.COM
 >Subject: Re: Shamanism and self-designation
 >
 >In a message dated 10/27/98 3:39:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
 >malcolmc-AT-SKIRNIR.DEMON.CO.UK writes:
 >
 ><< if you say you're a shaman, you'd better be able to back it up.
 >
 > Back it up by meeting the academic criteria?
 > Personally, I don't believe I can make that challenge over the
 > internet. I cannot see someone's community through a few lines of 
 text. >>
 >
 >
 >Perhaps not their community......but I do tend to notice how many talk 
 about
 >themselves and not their work or community.   Just an observation.
 >
 >Follows the feathers
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:09:01 EST
 >From:    Maggie Natiechia <Mahbszhon-AT-AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Shamanism and self-designation
 >
 >Aaniin
 >
 >There simply put..in my opinon...is no such thing as self-designation.
 >Being a Shaman is an egoless venture..... self-designation invokes ego.
 >
 >Maajaan..
 >Maggie
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:27:06 -0800
 >From:    "Alison A. Montey" <wy498-AT-VICTORIA.TC.CA>
 >Subject: shamanism and self designation
 >
 >i know a little about shamanism  but am not walking around claiming i 
 am a
 >shaman. for someone to be a true shaman, i find, that they don't have 
 to
 >tell you 'cause you can feel them even to a minute degree. some are
 >powerful, some are not. no offence to people who claim that they are...
 >some are just charlatans that want the attention and try to pull tricks 
 to
 >get it but where does that lead them...? into a whole pile of trouble 
 i'd
 >say. doesn't do no good to anger the ancestors. be careful... the 
 spirits
 >are getting angry.
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:54:59 -0600
 >From:    Karen Davis <kdavis-AT-ISD.NET>
 >Subject: Re: Art.
 >
 >>>Keltoi asked:
 >>>>Are there any list members present who use 'shamanic tools' in the
 >creation
 >>>>or presentation of the their art?
 >
 >I've been thinking about this since the question was first posted:
 >
 >I'm a writer, working with a 'card-carrying shaman'... a man who can 
 see
 >into the deepest crevices of the human heart, walk through walls, and 
 shape
 >the world by the power of his intent.  From him,  I'm learning to shift 
 my
 >assemblage point (mental paradigm) at will, and to look for story 
 threads as
 >they connect inside and outside of me...to follow energy connections 
 from my
 >heart into the world, and then write to my deepest feelings, using 
 intent to
 >change the structure of reality.   My motivation is the same as that of 
 a
 >'pathfinder' ... by Journeying to the place of mythic deities and 
 Presences,
 >I'm seeking answers to bring back to my People, which I then embody in
 >story.
 >
 >My shaman friend and I seek, shamanically, to embrace a new order ... 
 to
 >tease out and recognize an emergent World Myth which we can tell as 
 Story,
 >and in that fashion heal those who read our words...
 >
 >As for where I hang my hat with the nomenclature:  my very tall Shaman
 >friend once loomed over me, looked down his long nose, blinked his 
 luminous
 >turquoise eyes and declared me 'as shamanic as he is'.   The community 
 I
 >serve is global ... my shamanic tools are words ... the path I walk, 
 that of
 >Visionary or Pathfinder...  But I don't really feel comfortable donning 
 an
 >official Mantle of Power in the eyes of others by self-naming myself
 >Shaman...my work is better served by invisibility.
 >
 >-Karen-
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:08:41 EST
 >From:    Xena10000-AT-AOL.COM
 >Subject: Re: Shamanism and self-designation
 >
 >In a message dated 98-10-27 03:39:08 EST, you write:
 >
 ><< The 'solitary shaman' is to me, not a shaman - since serving a 
 community is
 >key. >>
 >
 >Just a devil's advocate sort of question here. It has probably been 
 asked
 >before (but not by me). I agree that community is the key. But what if 
 the
 >community - is the non-specific community of humanity at large? And out 
 of
 >that community - only a few others know the true nature of the "shaman" 
 in
 >question?
 >
 >Does this still count as a "shaman"? Although, presumably, the 
 individual in
 >question would not care one whit about titles and such anyway -
 >
 >Diana
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:49:02 +0000
 >From:    Malcolm Campbell <malcolmc-AT-SKIRNIR.DEMON.CO.UK>
 >Subject: Re: Shamanism and self-designation
 >
 >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 Xena10000-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
 >
 >> In a message dated 98-10-27 03:39:08 EST, you write:
 >>
 >> << The 'solitary shaman' is to me, not a shaman - since serving a 
 community is
 >> key. >>
 >>
 >> Just a devil's advocate sort of question here. It has probably been 
 asked
 >> before (but not by me). I agree that community is the key. But what 
 if the
 >> community - is the non-specific community of humanity at large? And 
 out of
 >> that community - only a few others know the true nature of the 
 "shaman" in
 >> question?
 >
 >My feeling is, that a shaman's service to a community is to bring that
 >community into contact with the community of spirits - and quite often 
 in
 >a very localised area.. Hard to get to know the land-spirits of a whole
 >county for example.. But even setting locality aside, I think if you're
 >working unseen, you're not fulfilling that role - you're not allowing 
 the
 >community to have some sort of communication through you with the 
 spirit
 >world.. You might be allowing the spirits to work through you, but 
 thats
 >only half the story.. A shaman lets the community work through them 
 too..
 >
 >Just my own biased opinion, of course.
 >
 >--- Malcolm
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >Date:    Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:49:14 EST
 >From:    Xena10000-AT-AOL.COM
 >Subject: Re: Shamanism and self-designation
 >
 >In a message dated 98-10-27 19:49:46 EST, you write:
 >
 ><< But even setting locality aside, I think if you're working unseen, 
 you're
 >not fulfilling that role - you're not allowing the community to have 
 some sort
 >of communication through you with the spirit world. >>
 >
 >My experience has been - the community doesn't want to know:) But 
 perhaps
 >finding the right community - is most of the challenge.
 >
 >Diana
 >
 >------------------------------
 >
 >End of SHAMAN-L Digest - 26 Oct 1998 to 27 Oct 1998 (#1998-57)
 >**************************************************************
 >
 
  >>