Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:43:49 +0200 (EET DST)
From: Vadim Verenits <grimnes-AT-physic.ut.ee>
Subject: Re: destiny or desire?




On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Chris Gordan wrote:

>
>
> Vadim Verenits wrote:
>
> > Take it more serious ...and it will work.By the way, what kind of Tarot do
> > you play with???....you know there are plenty of them
> >
>
> Well, actually - it already works. (as I said I don't consider play to be devoid of
> seriousness). Or do you mean it will 'seriously' reveal for me my pre-defined destiny?
No , i just tried to sophisticate it, to show how it is important to be
involved in the process of interpetation, ground "base of translation", on
which Tarot is based.
> Sorry, I don't believe in pre-defined destiny
So do i.
 - I beleive in agency
What kind of agency do you believe in ? Mechanistic, deterministic ,
hencefore vulgar materialistic
or ,like medium ,spiritual ye know....like fluids
 and will and desire
and
> life as something to be lived/created.
Life is the result of our activity, our perception of reality.Actually,we
are who we want to be?Did i
get it right?
  I find the concept that life is already mapped out
> for me by some transcendent force - well, silly.
<quoting Dan>:  Seeing it as a MAP rather than a TRACING,
> >
 My life isn't pre-ordained; it is however,
> contingent on the environment I live in.
Sure ,   life is rather self-determinated than pre-determinated; but you
are  always bound to some initial conditions and behave according to
certain rules.But in the coming epoch of Multiplicity and Cloning ,all
strict
Frame conditions ,symbolizing by the ineluctable rigidity of darvinistic
laws, will loose their value.
  On the other hand I think it's an interesting idea
> to think about - why do we (humans) desire gods and goddesses in whom we invest the power to
> define our lives in symbols?  Are we all just too scared to face our own part in the creation
> of life?
>We are granted not only by such a desire to Desire=B4God or Godess ...in
first queue  their BODIES as embodiment of certain attributes of primal
but nowdays unapproachable arduous DESIRE of ancienty.
In modern eastern  (as cultural phenomenon commonly refered  as
WorldWide) civilization such=B4a BODYLUST attitude is held toward ancient
roman and greek culture,ROOTS of our civilization.The CULT of BODIES in
its pure essence is the NUDITY.That explains what for all these
sculptures of naked greek-roman deities  are intended .Additionally, it
seems to be a good explanation for weird freudo-nietzschean predilection
with  ancient mythology.The creation of  a new myth can be eased by
adaptation and appliance of exsisting one!
> Yes I do know there are plenty of different packs.  I have a copy of the Mystic Tarot
> depicting the images/stories of Greek mythology.  I've also played with lots of other packs.
>
> >
> >
> > Well you are lucky enough not to get into Freud`s hands ....
>
> But you just couldn't resist extending his fingers anyway huh?
>
> > if it was so ,
> > he would help you to unveil your subconsious urges, lets say you play with
> > Tarot mainly due to that fact that you rebel  against perverted motivation
> > to play with your ...erm...membrum virile... and avoid it by the
> > replacement of one fracture of your consiousness by another.Sorry, if it
> > is not funny.
> >
>
>   ha ha!  yes it is funny -  I find it highly amusing!  For one "membrum virile"!  do you
> mean my virile member? Can't you say it - you mean my prick/penis - yeh?  Ah - so once a gain
> a freudian system creates a subject that is purely masculine!  (or are you now suggesting
> penis envy?) ho hum ho hum ho hum!   I really feel for men who read Freud - it must be that
> much more difficult to see what a load of crap it is -- mapping as it does a repressed
> psychology to the material formation of men's bodies.      Perhaps this is why D&G see a
> necessity to go through a becoming-woman?    Try escaping from the subject that defines you
> as lack(ing).  You see, this is just the same as the notion that the Tarot can reveal for you
> your hidden destiny -- Freud can reveal for you your hidden desires (which are of coarse
> always the same in the end).  What's the difference between hiding behind the 'phallus' and
> hiding behind 'fate and destiny"?  (from one back-hole to another I'd say).
>  ha ha ha ha! nice try, but I'm not that naive!  My rebellion is fully conscious and fully
> directed against the hands that would wrap me up in the fantasies of men in denial of their
> own bodies!
>Well, i think these statments do not need any comments
P.S
Beware of dirty psychoanalist`s hands.....And remember , these wrinkled
hands are always about to pet yours monkey!

> Chris
>
>
> With best regards
Vadim
>
___________________________________________________________
I know how little of value that once had cost
                 
SAMAEL "Rebelion"