Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:10:16 +0000
From: Daniel Haines <daniel-AT-tw2.com>
Subject: Re: non-critical hedonism


John Appleby wrote:

> > on the contrary, caught up in that crazy decade that was the 70s, Leary
> > did not regard himself as priveleged in this respect - all his crazy
> > friends had contact with "unknown intelligences" during this time!  and
> > unless you are particularly detached from current events, I think you
> > will notice that a huge number of people worldwide share this curious
> > belief.
> 
> Not as many people as believe that the Son of God died on the cross for
> our sins. Do you go for that one as well?

that wasn't really my point - I was only saying that leary did not claim
to be "chosen" or "messenger" of some space beings in the way you were
saying.  but since you ask, no, I'm not a christian

> 
> > lsd is not the only drug related to the four "higher" circuits, and
> > leary's position was that all these effects could be achieved without
> > drugs.
> 
> So acid is superfluous?

not superfluous but not essential - it lead leary into an area he'd
never known about - it is possible to get the same effects by other
means, so in a situation where lsd is illegal, why noty pursue those as
well? it's not about a drug, it's about a particular kind of experience. 

> > Why not? Because many people take acid without doing
> > > this.
> >
> > oh come off it! the variable involved in an acid trip (dosage, set,
> > setting - the person themselves) make this a meaningless objection.
> > almost anything that happens on acid might not happen to someone else
> > taking acid.
> 
> My point exactly! Somewhere (_The Politics of Ecstacy_ I think) Leary
> lists the dosage, setting, etc. which allows one to access these circuits
> via acid. One of these conditions is a guide to lead you to them. So my
> question is what is more important: The acid, or the guide telling you
> what is happening to you and thereby making it happen?

Well I have never done a guided leary style trip and the idea doesn't
appeal to me hugely, but no one has ever been forced into doing this
kind of trip - its a suggestion, an experiment... I prefer things a
little more spontaneously... however, it is clear to me that leary knew
what the hell he was talking about and IF you wanted to achieve the
things he describes through acid, THEN I think you could successfully us
his techniques to do so.  what's the problem with that?  as for "what is
more important?" it's obviously the combination of the two things...
without either the experience would be different.

> > lots of people smoke all their lives but never get lung cancer, too; or
> > so i heard...
> 
> Yes, but not many people ingest LSD without experiencing some form of
> psychedelic effect. All I am saying is that one cannot generalize what
> that effect consists of.

no - you CAN generalise, but you may not be correct in all cases...

[...]
> Anyway the main thing is that, as you said, I don't find his maps useful
> and would need to be convinced as to what use other people were getting
> out of them.

hmmn... okay... though I wonder if your second point here follows from
your first? why do you think that you not finding them useful is a
reason for other people not to find them useful..? Surely if no one
found them useful then they would not ever have been noticed/still be in
print...?

cheers,

dan h.


-- 
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/chupacabras/48/     
http://www.tw2.com/staff/daniel/

Ware ware Karate-do o shugyo surumonowa,
Tsuneni bushido seishin o wasurezu,
Wa to nin o motte nashi,
Soshite tsutomereba kanarazu tasu.

We who study Karate-do,
Should never forget the spirit of the samurai,
With peace, perseverance and hard work,
We will reach our goal without failure.