Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:50:58 +0000
From: Daniel Haines <daniel-AT-tw2.com>
Subject: Re: Pardon my curiosity, Mr Haines


BH,

thanks for your two cents...  having only experienced healthcare in
Britain myself, it is interesting that my attitude is similar to yours -
suggesting this is not just due to my own singular experiences...  I
think this is a particularly interesting issue as it opens onto a whole
range of question-marks hanging over the aims and ideals of humanism,
liberalism, democracy etc. concerning things like state run healthcare
and education for all... 

as we witness the collapse of the institutions formed by post-war
socialist goodwill in britain - the welfare state, the national health
service - it seems to reveal just how problematic the state project of
"improving" people and/or their lives is... perhaps even that it is
fundamentally misconceived (well, nietszche tried to tell them that half
a century before...)  it's a very difficult area as it tangles itself up
in questions of class, economics, paternalistic politics, individual
rights and what the hell being free means in a 'democracy' anyway -- the
debate hasn't really left the 19th century yet -- but I think it is now
fairly clear (for those who are willing to look at it) that something is
not really working !  educating more people and giving them access to
healthcare doesn't seem to "work" as liberal humanists imaged it would
in the first half of this century.  it's tricky as it depends on your
perspective and on the subjective "better or worse" judgement you make.  

mind you, I often doubt whether anything has really changed except a new
strategy in harnessing the labour market into the techonologically
enhanced capitalist machine -- new axioms for new productivity... give
'em a little more carrot and we won't need the stick.... 

oh yeah, I forot, it's postmodernity, isn't it.

the same old shit... sigh.

(ramble, ramble, moan)

dan h.99




Bruce Hagood wrote:
> 
> This is an interesting thread!
> 
> My two cents' worth, FWIW:  MD's, especially in the United States (I can't speak
> too well for MD's in other countries, and I am not an MD myself, understand) do a
> good job of giving catastrophic care and care for trauma.  Routine health
> situations seem to be a problematic area now.
> 
> My grandparents' generation saw doctors as gods walking on earth, and the doctors,
> by and large, were happy to concur with this opinion.  As I see it, people of my
> generation and younger generations are seeing the clay feet on the MD's, but the
> MD's (as a general rule, note) still insist on being treated as gods walking on
> earth.  There is a disconnect here!
> 
> Understand, I think that on the whole, it is better to have MD's in our society
> than not.  As I say, MD's do a good job with trauma and catastrophic care, and many
> MD's do a pretty good job with routine health care.  But as I see it, the problem
> is that MD's have a tendency to want to treat the symptoms rather than the
> underlying causes.  It is much easier to wait until the problem starts getting out
> of hand, and then prescribe some medication for the problem.  It is much tougher to
> recommend and supervise fundamental lifestyle changes which will avoid potential
> problems.
> 
> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but MD's tend to go with the
> latter because it is easier for them.  That is a human impulse, but not necessarily
> best for our long-term health.  Hence the rise in popularity of alternative health
> strategies.
> 
>    BH
> 
> Daniel Haines wrote:
> 
> > f1221-AT-cc.nagasaki-u.ac.jp wrote:
> > >
> > > At 10:37 PM 99.1.5, Daniel Haines wrote:
> > > >
> > > > forget about such vague terms as "rigid psychic structures" and take a
> > > > look at what most people eat and how they spend their time - fast
> > > > food/coca-cola/ sitting down.  too much alcohol, cigarettes, caffeine,
> > > > sugar, exhaust fumes, noise pollution etc etc etc -- while we cannot
> > > > control all aspects of the environment we live in (or perhaps un-control
> > > > is a more appropriate phrase) we do have choices about many things and a
> > > > lot of people - for whatever reason - choose things that are "unhealthy"
> > > > and contribute to serious illnesses.  I don't want to sound like some
> > > > preacher of purity here, but I don't see what is so unspeakable about
> > > > the medical profession telling people that IF they want to be healthy,
> > > > THEN they have to work at it and PAY ATTENTION! to their lifestyle.
> > >
> > > What is so unspeakable about the medical profession telling people that
> > > IF they want to be healthy, THEN they have to work at it...
> > >
> > > Pardon my curiosity, Mr Haines, but have you ever told this to a patient ?
> >
> > I feel you've maybe missed my point here.  of course I've never told
> > this to "a patient" - I don't have any patients.  but that is neither
> > here nor there.  I assume that your questioning tone here is meant to
> > imply a certain naivete on my part, but i'm not trying to claim that I
> > am in any way equipped to try and act as a doctor or whatever, nor am I
> > trying to claim so authority in such matters. i'm just questioning the
> > institutionalised position of medicine, based mostly on my own
> > experience and that of others who I know personally.  I am not
> > anti-medicine or anti-doctors - but i thnk the role that medicine has
> > come to play within western societies is as potentially damaging to
> > health as it is potentially beneficial -- for the reasons I have already
> > outlined regarding the idea of our health as "fixable" in a way
> > analogous to, say, a motor car.  so for you to ask "have you ever told
> > this to a patient ?" is to appeal to a relationship - doctor/patient -
> > as it exists now, and which is exactly what I was attempting to make
> > problematic in my comments.
> >
> > > I have, I have, and not just once. Do you really believe, a physician would
> > > say anything else but >everbody is the one most important guardian of
> > > his own life -and should act accordingly< ? Do you really believe, the
> > > >mainstream< medicine does NOT think and say smoking, eating fast food,
> > > taking too little exercise -yes AND swallowing down anger and grief- will
> > > be unhealthy in the long run ?
> >
> > of course i don't believe this.  but they might just say nothing.  and,
> > again, it is more to do with peoples relationship to their own health as
> > mediated by doctors than what doctors themselves might  think or say.
> >
> > > > Yes, I know this only relates distantly to most instances of cancer.
> > > > but I'm more interested here in your attitude towards the patient, the
> > > > idea that the worst thing you can do is blame someone for their
> > > > illness.  from a healing-process  point of view I can see your point,
> > > > but there is more to it than you seem to allow.
> > >
> > > You are arguing against something I have not said.
> >
> > okay - sorry if i've misunderstood or extended what you've said - I'm
> > not trying to score points against you, I'm just interested in this area
> > of discussion.
> >
> > >
> > > > and no, I don't think any illness is anyone's "FAULT"; I'm suggesting
> > > > only that it may result from lifestyle choices or ignorance -- the
> > > > extension of your example here --> "No, he did not speak of fault or
> > > > > punishment, but what do you think, the patient made out of it ?
> > > >" is that no one should be made aware of how they get ill in anyway,
> > > >in case it makes them feel bad about it!
> > >
> > > Sorry, but that is nonsense.
> >
> > (it was meant to be!)
> >
> > >
> > > Let`s say, a patient smoked and got a bronchial carcinoma: I would
> > > tell him quite frankly that smoking causes cancer, that this has been
> > > known for decades and that he himself probably knew it perfectly well.
> > >
> > > But the link between smoking and lung cancer has been demonstrated,
> > > both epidemiologically and experimentally !
> > > The link between the >rigid character< and cancer is at best a fancyfull
> > > medical hypothesis.
> >
> > i accept this distinction.  although i think the you are throwing in the
> > word fanciful to discredit it in advance... it has been established that
> > there are links between your "character" and how/whether certain
> > illnesses manifest.  why shouldn't we therefore look at whther this is
> > the case with cancer(s)? what's so fanciful about that?
> >
> > > > and to tie this back in to the rigid structure thing --> people's
> > > > psychic structures relate to how they approach life and the life choices
> > > > they make.  rigidity is opposed to adaptibility, which is important in
> > > > relation to health issues - especially diet, i would argue: a refusal or
> > > > inability to see the need to eat differently to what your parents ate,
> > > > to continue a potentially unhealthy diet, for example, might lead to
> > > > serious illness.  which would be an example of rigid psychic structures
> > > > contributing to disease. (and no, I'm not talking about cancer(s) -
> > > > although I think the smoking-lung cancer connection is a crucial example
> > > > here.)
> > >
> > > Ok, in this version I have no problems with this. But that is definitely not,
> > > where this discussion started out.
> >
> > I know it's not where it started out! that's good, isn't it?
> >
> > dan h.99
> > --
> > http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/chupacabras/48/
> > http://www.tw2.com/staff/daniel/
> >
> > Ware ware Karate-do o shugyo surumonowa,
> > Tsuneni bushido seishin o wasurezu,
> > Wa to nin o motte nashi,
> > Soshite tsutomereba kanarazu tasu.
> >
> > We who study Karate-do,
> > Should never forget the spirit of the samurai,
> > With peace, perseverance and hard work,
> > We will reach our goal without failure.

-- 
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/chupacabras/48/     
http://www.tw2.com/staff/daniel/

Ware ware Karate-do o shugyo surumonowa,
Tsuneni bushido seishin o wasurezu,
Wa to nin o motte nashi,
Soshite tsutomereba kanarazu tasu.

We who study Karate-do,
Should never forget the spirit of the samurai,
With peace, perseverance and hard work,
We will reach our goal without failure.