Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:35:52 -0500
Subject: Re: PKF: Identification
From: robasso2-AT-juno.com (Robert Basso)


Wai,

There's a great dynamic difference between the cognitive behavior of an
individual and the cognitive behavior of a group or institution.  By
himself and his IDENTITY the individual is primarily trying to express
thought or understanding while the group or institution is primarily
trying to express power or control.  Whenever the individual gets into
the latter mode of cognition, as a rule it's in rebellion to social
oppression from groups or institutions.  But even by himself as a rebel
the individual still needs identity or else he must be totally
indifferent to oppression.  If you're neither nazi nor anti-nazi, racist
nor anti-racist, etc, for example, then you're expressing, it seems to
me, CASUAL indifference to social oppression through, let's call it,
a-identity.

Part of identity, of course, is taking a position and also, in
consequence, expressing an opinion, or being an individual.


You previously wrote:

>>I think, there is a great difference between "creation of knowledge"
and
"accumulation of knowledge". <<

"Great difference" sounds like a sharp distinction to me, unless you
meant something different than what your words signify.


You wrote:

>>Robert understood two "different" points which I mentioned in my text
in
"separate paragraphs", as one point.<<

I fully realized you were making two different points.  I was pointing
out the implications of those who would make one point out of VALIDITY
like the Nazis you brought up, conflating existentiality and
instrumentality.  While you wish to avoid such conflation, in only
ascribing validity to objective instrumentality and not subjective
existentiality you effectively do it anyway by not validating identity. 
The nazis were identity invalidators also.  (Maybe this is turning into a
Heidegger discussion...)


Opinion and belief are how people validate their identity.  If opinions
are not valid so are identities.


>> I don't think, there is any validity of
someone's opinion.<<

In that case there's also no validity to your opinions as well and what
you're saying must be meaningless.  Unless you really believe there's no
validity to "someone's opinion" but your own..?


Do you really believe validity only exists in science and technology?? 
It seems to me this kind of contradicts your statement to David:  "Just
let everyone goes his way! There are too many managers of knowledge in
this world, what we need is more artists of knowledge."

How can anyone go his own way and be a knowledge-artist at the same time
without his opinions having any validity, or validity only being
technically instrumental?  How would you MEASURE instrumental validity
regarding a novelist or artist, outside of royalties or popularity?  Any
such non-objective measure would have to be a personal opinion without
any validity according to what you're saying.


>>Such validity may exist in a "limit" field of natural
science. This example is an example in natural science, but it is not
forthe point of murder of Jews in the second world war. The problem which I
mentioned relating to murder of Jews is the problem about "identity". <<

So is the problem about the washing machine, effectively..

As I said: "I think there are two very basic types of validity:
instrumental (or objective) and existential (or subjective).  They should
be kept totally separate and distinct at the risk of dehumanization,
which Science has brought about."  Likewise there's instrumental identity
and existential identity.

Identity and validity are thus dualistically complementary.

 We all validate identity in some way, and identify in order to be
validated.  It's just part of being human, and social.  But I'm talking
about EXISTENTIAL validity and identity in this paragraph.  You seem not
to want to recognize existential validity which prompted me to understand
your "two different points" mentioned above as one-point, in such a
context of non-validity.  In other words, what's your point in making 2
different points about Nazi behavior and being a Jew (an implicit
distinction of identity) if you don't recognize the validity of human
identity conceptually or morally--only technocratically, apparently? 
This is totally unclear to me.  I think the problem is not seeing
identity and validity as complementary.

Unlike machines (which express their identities through facts, data or
information) individuals express their identities (and ideas or thoughts)
through opinions.  If opinions don't have validity, neither do
individuals.  Only mechanical or inanimate devices and objects must have
validity (or valid identity) then.

If you don't have an opinion about something then you're expressing
INDIFFERENCE.    If you invalidate all opinions about things then you're
trying to mandate indifference.


>>But we should avoid and be conscious of the
problem of identity. When one identifies himself strongly in order to
against the identifying from other people which be pushed to him, this
process can just make the problem more difficult and make one becomes
theoffering of the people who take against his will. <<

Of course this is your opinion.

I'll just repeat here what I originally wrote:  I think we need to define
ourselves, just not too rigidly or ideologically.  If we don't do it, as
you point out, others will try to do it for us.  That's society. 

Identity can be a social construct or it can be a cultural principle.  I
think you're viewing it as a cultural principle, therefore treating the
concept of identity indiscriminately like a plague.

I don't see how anybody can not have an identity without not having some
direction or goals in life.  Can you explain how one can have goals
without having any kind of identity, constructive or principled.  How can
one have goals and direction without opinions?

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