Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:38:11 +0200
From: Erik Hoogcarspel <jehms-AT-kabelfoon.nl>
Subject: Re: recent article focusing our discussion!!


Let me tell you a little secret, Jivko: not everything which is in the 
newspaper is true and not every book that's written is trustworthy.

Jivko Georgiev wrote:

> There is a recent article i found today in a western
> newspaper. The artical is a rewiew of a recent book on
> the balkans. The author explains shortly the content
> of the book. Here is the qoutation from the rewiew.
> Please, read it:
> " Mazower does not accept the idea that Balkans
> violence is result of ancient ethnic hatred. The
> source of the conflict often lay outside the region.
> VIOLENT NATIONALISM, he stresses, has been IMPORTED IN
> THE BALKANS FROM WESTERN EUROPE. It was Western Europe
> that gave the peoples of Soutrhern Europe the
> ideological weapons with which they could destroy each
> other - and themselves." 
>         Joeri Buhrer Tavanier (author of the rewiew)
> 
> I havent wrote it. I jsut found it. If You dont trust
> me , I will send you scanned copy of the article. The
> newspapper is a newspapper about Bulgaria for
> foreigners, called "Sofia Echo" - its chief is Brendan
> Howe. and here is the book:
> 
> The Balkans: Short History
> Mark Mazower
> The Modern Library, New York 2000,
>  $19.95
> 
> 
> --- Larry Chappell <larchap-AT-tecinfo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Jivko:
>> 
>> You seem to have committed an odd variation of the
>> genetic fallacy --
>> because something originates in X ("the west") it
>> belongs essentially to
>> that thing. On this reasoning "zero" would be
>> essentially Arabic. Since you
>> admit that China (Japan?) adopted nationalism, how
>> does it remain an
>> exclusively "western" property?
>> 
>> I do not understand your question about what
>> Foucault "had in common with
>> nationalism." No one has claimed that he was a
>> nationalist, and one can
>> recognize the importance of nationalism (among other
>> power formations)
>> without either affirming its value, its universality
>> or its supreme
>> importance.
>> 
>> Larry
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jivko Georgiev" <jivkox43georgiev-AT-yahoo.com>
>> To: <foucault-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 11:24 AM
>> Subject: nationalism and the human being
>> 
>> 
>>> China addopted a western invention - the
>> 
>> communsim-
>> 
>>> and thus became nationalistic. Most of those, who
>>> investigate the communism, sais there is loads of
>>> nationalism in its structure: Lyotard wrote about
>> 
>> it
>> 
>>> in a collection called "The postmodern explained
>> 
>> for
>> 
>>> children". The communism is cultivating
>> 
>> nationalism
>> 
>>> and then exploits it ( for example - Yougoslavia).
>> 
>> I
>> 
>>> wanted to show you that the nationalism, which the
>>> west sees in every country in the world, is only a
>>> notion, which belongs to the west and to nobody
>> 
>> else.
>> 
>>> The west sais, that the opposite of the
>> 
>> nationalism is
>> 
>>> "the humanity" - as we know from our friend Michel
>>> Foucault "the humanity" is nonsense. But as we
>> 
>> know
>> 
>>> "the humanity" is nowadays used as a juridic tool
>>> against "the nationalism"( see - Milosevic, the
>> 
>> man
>> 
>>> who did crime against "the humanity") So tell me
>> 
>> again
>> 
>>> please, what did Foucault had in common with the
>>> nationalism?
>>> 
>>> Jivko
>>> --- Larry Chappell <larchap-AT-tecinfo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Jivko:
>>>> 
>>>> You are seriously claiming that there is no
>>> 
>> Japanese
>> 
>>>> or Chinese nationalism?
>>>> Is Russia "western" or "non-western" or some
>>>> combination of both? Whether
>>>> nationalism is a useful concept requires close
>>>> attention to particular
>>>> settings. I do not see how anyone could use
>>> 
>> these
>> 
>>>> global generalizations
>>>> about "the west"  to understand anything.
>>>> 
>>>> Larry
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jivko Georgiev"
>>> 
>> <jivkox43georgiev-AT-yahoo.com>
>> 
>>>> To: <foucault-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 7:27 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: arabs ana hanums
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I repeat: the nationalism concern only the
>>>> 
>> western
>> 
>>>>> world. To the rest of the world it is
>>>> 
>> irrelevant.
>> 
>>>>> Michel Foucault knew it is a unimportenant
>>>> 
>> issue,
>> 
>>>> and
>>>> 
>>>>> he avoided it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Zhivko
>>>>> --- "Hennon, Lisa" <hennon-AT-arcadia.edu> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I appreciate how Stuart Eldon approached
>>>>> 
>> this
>> 
>>>>>> question.  I wonder if a way
>>>>>> to connect Foucault's work in this
>>>>> 
>> discussion
>> 
>>>> about
>>>> 
>>>>>> nationalism is to
>>>>>> identify some of the discourses that have
>>>>> 
>> gone
>> 
>>>> into
>>>> 
>>>>>> the nationalism
>>>>>> literature.  Much of what I have read has
>>>>> 
>> been
>> 
>>>>>> structuralist or humanist
>>>>>> explanations, ways of reasoning that
>>>>> 
>> Foucault
>> 
>>>> was
>>>> 
>>>>>> avoiding.  I am trying to
>>>>>> use the concept of governmentality to ask
>>>>> 
>> what
>> 
>>>> kinds
>>>> 
>>>>>> of national imaginaries
>>>>>> have informed U.S. education sciences, so in
>>>>> 
>> a
>> 
>>>> way I
>>>> 
>>>>>> am using Foucault's
>>>>>> concepts rather than concepts of
>>>>> 
>> nationalism,
>> 
>>>> but my
>>>> 
>>>>>> interests intersect
>>>>>> with the question of nationalism.  Perhaps
>>>>> 
>> this
>> 
>>>>>> worsens the understanding.
>>>>>> I hope not.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Lisa
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Jivko Georgiev
>>>>>> [mailto:jivkox43georgiev-AT-yahoo.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:31 AM
>>>>>> To: foucault-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>>>>>> Subject: RE: arabs ana hanums
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you can't see how biopower relates to
>>>>>>> nationalism, I don't know what to
>>>>>>> tell you.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> neither do i, sorry. I cant see such thing,
>>>>>> honestly.
>>>>>> The nationalism was a question foucault
>>>>> 
>> never
>> 
>>>> cared
>>>> 
>>>>>> about. But my research showed me that
>>>>> 
>> "ethnic
>> 
>>>>>> cleansing, nationalism, bla, bla, bla" is on
>>>>> 
>> the
>> 
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> page of every western newspapper and
>>>>> 
>> magazin.
>> 
>>>> And i
>>>> 
>>>>>> say to myself : wow!! whats wrong with these
>>>>> 
>>>> guys?
>>>> 
>>>>>> Than i figure out a paradox: the world, for
>>>>> 
>>>> which
>>>> 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> national borders doesnt exist anymore, and
>>>>> 
>> in
>> 
>>>> which
>>>> 
>>>>>> everyone is nomore of his own race, this
>>>>> 
>> world
>> 
>>>> has
>>>> 
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> a main issue the nationalism and ethnic
>>>>> 
>>>> cleansing -
>>>> 
>>>>>> this western world is forcing, through the
>>>>> 
>> help
>> 
>>>> of
>>>> 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> weapon, the other world to confest that he,
>>>>> 
>> the
>> 
>>>>>> biggest part of the world, is a Nazi and he
>>>>> 
>> is
>> 
>>>> doing
>>>> 
>>>>>> the ethnic cleansing, when in fact most of
>>>>> 
>> the
>> 
>>>> world
>>>> 
>>>>>> doesnt know what that means. Isnt that
>>>>> 
>> crazy?
>> 
>>>>>> Assertion of rights and authorship?  How
>>>>> 
>>>> Foucauldian
>>>> 
>>>>>>> is this?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> How?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards!
>>>>>> Jivko
>>>>>> --- newidder <N.E.Widder-AT-exeter.ac.uk>
>>>>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>> ===== Original Message From
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> foucault-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ====>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Calm down.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Some of us are calm when writing this.
>>>>>>> 
> === message truncated ==> 
> 
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