From: "Raul A. Rodriguez" <rarodriguez-AT-unvm.edu.ar>
Subject: HAB: Re: Re: Re: September 11 and the demise of the Habermasian project
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:40:46 -0300


Bob,
No, I don't believe that the political - cultural and social problems they
decrease to a game of economic interests as the price of the petroleum. This
was the error of the classic Marxist analysis. Well, even these, the
economic interests occupy a place in the axiological hierarchy of the life
of a society according to their cultural conformation. The social behaviors
are product of an instrumental rationality but also, of an approach of
decision structured in the normative net of their society. It is this the
practical rationality.
On the other hand, the cultural identity of a town or of an individual it
structures their social interaction. The destruction of a culture, the
attacks to their cultural identity, to the normative system that sustains it
are an attack that it can generate reactions like those of the talibanes or
the warlike North Americans. The attack was made in it USA to the symbols of
the economic and military power.
Raul
****************************************************************************
******************
No, no creo que los problemas politicos  - culturales y sociales se reduzcan
a un juego de intereses economicos como el precio del petroleo (oil). Este
fue el error del analisis marxista clasico. Pues, aun estos, los intereses
economicos ocupan un lugar en la jerarquia axiologica de la vida de una
sociedad segun su conformación cultural. Es decir, los comportamientos
sociales son producto de una racionalidad instrumental pero tambien, de un
criterio de decision estructurado en la red normativa de su sociedad. Es
esta la racionalidad practica.
Por otra parte, la identidad cultural de un pueblo o de un individuo
estructura su interaccion social. La destruccion de una cultura, los ataques
a su identidad cultural, al sistema normativo que lo sostiene es un ataque
que puede generar reacciones como las de los talibanes o los norteamericanos
belicistas.  El ataque se hizo en USA a los simbolos del poder economico y
militar.
Raul



----- Original Message -----
From: "bob scheetz" <rscheetz-AT-cboss.com>
To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:35 PM
Subject: HAB: Re: Re: September 11 and the demise of the Habermasian project


> Raul,
>      You're right of course about the fundamentally spurious nature  of
> Western "liberal values"...so, don't you think the analysis or
"hermeneutic"
> of this appalling event, taken globally, can be reduced to the simple
> formula: "the price of oil"?
> bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Raul A. Rodriguez <rarodriguez-AT-unvm.edu.ar>
> To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:06 PM
> Subject: HAB: Re: September 11 and the demise of the Habermasian project
>
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Prefiero escribir en espaol. Yo espero que Ud. pueda entender.
> > Creo que el anlisis de Habermas ayuda a comprender la distorsin de la
> > comunicacin entre USA y algunas orientaciones poltica de carcter
> > fundamentalista . Esta no es una confrontacin entre la Democracia -
> > Libertad y el ??? de los fundamentalistas. Tampoco este es un problema
> > psiquitrico ( actos cometidos por locos). Lo que EE.UU quiere iniciar no
> es
> > una guerra contra el terrorismo sino contra el terrorismo que no maneja
la
> > CIA contra los atentados que se hacen en USA o contra lo gobiernos que
no
> > son adictos a la poltica de USA. El hoy, buscado Bin Laden y otros
tantos
> > han sido instruidos en la Universidad de Medina en Arabia Saudita que
> posee
> > excelentes contactos de todo tipo con la CIA y el Departamento de Estado
> de
> > los EEUU. Bin Laden es un terrorista anticomunista creado por la CIA
para
> > enfrentarse al gobierno de izquierda de Afganistan. Pero son tambin
> > creaciones de USA fue el terrorismo de los Contra en Nicaragua, Noriega
en
> > Panam, Montesino en Per. o tambin el golpe de estado en Argentina en
1976
> > con 30.000 muertos. No olvide el 11 de septiembre de 1973 en Chile donde
> USA
> > lanz la bomba "Pinochet". Cuntos atentados terroristas ha planificado
los
> > EE.UU?
> > Estimado Tom, la confrontacin es entre culturas (mundos de vida) y
> > legitimaciones divergentes, entre racionalidades instrumentales y formas
> de
> > colonizacin del mundo de la vida.
> > El tema es ms amplio que la informacin que da CNN.
> > por qu USA no presiona a Israel por el cumplimiento de las normas de la
> > ONU al igual que lo hace a Irn? por qu no vemos como actos de terrorismo
> > de Estado los asesinatos selectivos que hace Israel? Cmo Ud. ve son
muchos
> > los puntos que demuestran que esta no es un confrontacin entre
Democracia-
> > Libertad (USA)  y los OTROS, sus enemigos.
> > No a la guerra.
> >
> > Saludos: Ral
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Bridges" <bridges-AT-civsoc.com>
> > To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:22 PM
> > Subject: HAB: September 11 and the demise of the Habermasian project
> >
> >
> > > Can the Habermasian project survive the terrorist attack on NY
> > > and Washington?
> > > By "Habermasian project," I refer to the philosophical project
> > > of (roughly) deriving universally valid norms of truth and justice
from
> > > a formal pragmatics -- i.e., from a reconstruction of the rules and
> > > assumptions that all speakers and hearers (regardless of differences
in
> > > culture and context) inevitably employ in everyday processes of
> > > communication.
> > > It seems to me that if Habermas himself had abandoned his
> > > universalist, quasi-Kantian, postmetaphysical ambitions and had
> > > presented his theory simply as an account of the style and norms of
> > > communication prevalent in societies influenced by the ideals of the
> > > European Enlightenment and liberal democracy, his philosophical
> > > contribution would have a lasting value. It seems plausible to me to
say
> > > that, at least in the case of the very best citizens of Western
> > > democracies, everyday processes of communication are indeed governed
by
> > > the aim of achieving mutual understanding, so that
context-transcending
> > > validity claims and a willingness to justify those claims discursively
> > > are indeed defining features of such communcative interaction.
> > > But I wonder -- after September 11, does anyone really still
> > > believe that Habermas' formal pragmatic account of everyday
> > > communication captures the rules and assumptions governing speakers
and
> > > hearers in the Middle Eastern cultural context that glorifies
religious
> > > martyrdom and Islamic holy war? In that cultural context, are everyday
> > > patterns of communicative interaction really captured by an account of
> > > action oriented toward mutual understanding as Habermas defines it? Do
> > > the speakers and hearers shaped by radical Islamic fundamentalism
engage
> > > in communicative action that raises context-transcending, discursively
> > > redeemable validity claims? I don't think so.
> > > But the fact that Habermas' account of communicative action
> > > cannot shed much light on the communicative competence required for
> > > participation in Islamic fundamentalist societies does not make his
> > > account less illuminating as an analysis of the communicative
competence
> > > required for participation in Western civil societies. The trouble is
> > > that Habermas would no doubt reject this more modest, culturally
> > > particularist revision of his account of communicative action. To
rescue
> > > his universalist claims, he would no doubt call into play a theory of
> > > social evolution that would relegate the forms of communication found
in
> > > radical Islamic fundamentalist contexts to some sort of
developmentally
> > > deficient category. Unfortunately, this kind of strategy reflects
> > > precisely the sort of cultural arrogance of the West that is
responsible
> > > in part for producing the terrorist culture of the Middle East, a
> > > culture that seeks to destroy the very forms of communicative action
> > > that Habermas insists are normative for all humanity.
> > >
> > > Tom Bridges
> > > http://www.civsoc.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >
> >
> >
> >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>
>
>      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---



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