File spoon-archives/habermas.archive/habermas_2001/habermas.0109, message 69


From: "E.Pavlov" <epavlov-AT-mail.ru>
Subject: Re: HAB: Reasonable Response & Anti-Americanism
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:53:52 +0000 (GMT)


[Gary] 
> Does this mean, then, that you are much less interested in being
> effectively persuasive than you are interested in reassuring yourself
> about what you believe? You earlier postings have asserted views, but
> not argued anything reasonably.

[Evgeni]
I am sorry if I sound anti-american, I guess that is your understanding
of my posts since it is in the subject line. I was trying to say that if I 
disagree with US foreign policy, this doesn't mean that I am 
anti-american. No, I am not simply interested in reassuring myself
in what I believe. I didn't claim to argue that terrorist attack on US
is in any was a justified reaction of those who disapprove American
policy in Middle East.

[Gary] 
> How many Albanian casualties justify NATO action against Serbian
> fanaticism? 

[Evgeni]
My point was this - in order to pursuade the public to approve the
bombings, the numbers were overstated. If NATO wanted to act
against "Serbian fanaticism" it did not have to do it, simply act...

[Gary]
> Like you say:  
> > well, "it is not the number, I am
> > terrible concerned about"...

[Evgeni]
Note the quotation marks, I believe these were Colin Powell's words
related to the number of casualities in Iraq. I cannot support this with 
 
> So, might you recognize that you're not too concerned to be clear
> about what you want others to understand? 
> 
> 
> > Like I already said, I don't support terrorism, but I also don't
> > want to see a new war where
> > more innocent people will die in this blind retaliation campaign
> -...
> 
> What blind retaliation campaign? The U.S. has taken a law enforcement
> attitude toward the Osama bin Laden. No one on this email list,
> including Fred, has advocated brute retaliation. For a long time, the
> UN has asked the Talibans to turn over Osama bin Laden, in a law
> enforcement capacity, and the Talibans refused. 
> 
> > there are no evidences of
> > bin Laden involvement, ...
> 
> You don't know that. You just don't give credence to U.S assertions
> for *years* that there IS compelling evidence. Your kind of attitude
> here "argues" for Fred's reaction to your earlier postings. 
> 
> > and there probably won't be, because to
> > start a war you don't really
> > need it ...
> 
> Now, what kind of attitude is this? 
> 
> > - simply show NY destruction and then bin Laden in the next
> > episode and American
> > public will support whatever war US gov. is going to start. 
> 
> 
> The American public would have to be very simple-minded for your
> assertion to have credence. Do you think the American public is this
> stupid? So, what exactly do you think *Fred*'s problem is? Looks like
> you're supporting his level of reaction. 
> 
> > 
> > [Fred] 
> > > Because I am an American, I am concerned about both the
> > possibility of 
> > > recurrence of terrorist attacks and about the progress of
> > retaliation for the 
> > > WTC attack.  
> > 
> > [Evgeni]
> > Excuse my analogy, but during the WWII in occupied regions of
> > Russia, Germans
> > had a law of retaliation 
> 
> No, I cannot excuse your analogy. It's irrelevant and insulting. 
> 
> >... Why did US choose Afghanistan? 
> 
> Because Osama bin Laden is, indisputably, there.
> 
> > What [is the proof]
> > that bin Laden is responsible? 
> 
> That's a fair question. Are you open to a fair answer? The Talibans
> want proof, too. They, too, turn to modern (public, "sunshine")
> standards of procedure when it suits them (while turning to their own
> secret deliberations when that suits them).
> 
> > Will US fight terrorism in Northern
> > Ireland? 
> 
> Have you heard of any Irish nationalis bombing Americans? As a matter
> of fact, though, the U.S. is largely responsible for mediating
> various prospects for peace in Northern Ireland.
> 
> 
> > Turkey?
> 
> Your point?
> 
> > Chechnya? 
> 
> The U.S. protested loudly. What exactly do you want, U.S.
> intervention in Russia? 
> 
> 
> > 
> > [Fred] 
> > > .... these vicious attacks, especially in Isreal, ....
> > > been occuring everywhere: death squads in Latin America, Sri
> > Lanka, all over 
> > > Africa, Northern Ireland, etc. Prosecution has been lax, as if
> > these are 
> > > natural events and nothing can be done.  
> > 
> > [Evgeni]
> > Why then US did nothing about terrorism until it experienced it?
> 
> The U.S. has been trying to fight terrorism for many years, as a
> matter of law enforcement and civil collaboration with other nations.
> The U.S. has respected the sovereignty of "harboring" nations, and
> this approach is no longer workable.
> 
> > Why [were] 
> > bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania not interpreted
> > as acts of war? 
> 
> Because they were regarded as crimes.
> 
> > Embassies represent the country, why did US only
> > retaliated by
> > bombing of Afg. and Sudan? 
> 
> The U.S. did not bomb these nations; they bombed a pharmaceutical
> plant in Sudan and training camps in Afghanistan. You must
> distinguish the facts of action from interpretation of action. Osama
> bin Laden and his network allegedly operated from the two tiny
> locations that were precisely bombed. 
> 
> 
> > I don't oppose the elimination of terrorism, I oppose the massive
> > retaliation war that will kill more innocent people and will not be
> > effective against terrorists themselves. 
> 
> I'm sure Fred is with you on this. 
> 
> > So bin Laden will be
> > killed, 
> > so his miliraty group will be destroyed, another one will appear,
> > because
> > these people have a cause and US attack will not crush them,...
> 
> This is exactly the perspective of the U.S. government. Going after
> particular criminals is only part of a long campaign against
> organized crime. 
> 
> > [...and] only give[s terrorists] another argument for their cause.
> I am against throughtless war that will satisfy American public...
> 
> How about thoughtful interventions that will satisfy victims
> worldwide and kill the prospect of terrorism becoming biological and
> nuclear?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> 
> 
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