Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:01:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gary E Davis <gedavis1-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HAB: Re: Reasonable Response & Anti-Americanism (Raul)


Raul, 

I regret to say that I can't navigate your "English", especially your
word "plow". Please DO re-send your message below (to me at least)
when you can get an English translation of a Spanish version that you
would prefer (also, please, your earlier posting regarding my comment
on anti-modernism. Thanks). I look forward to understanding you! And
I want to reply from that basis. 

Best regards, 

Gary



--- "Raul A. Rodriguez" <rarodriguez-AT-unvm.edu.ar> wrote:
> Dear Gary: 
> 
> 
> I see that you put passion to defend the international North
> American politics as likewise, Sharon's politics in Israel. Today
> U.S.A. has begun to modify this attitude. That is a good sign!. 
> I also see that you have a lot of enthusiasm to know the philosophy
> of Habermas. Well. That that here you discusses it is somehow the
> social theory with empiric bases, the philosophical reflection with
> capacity to illuminate the life. The social philosophy with to
> practical orientation. Of what is in the critical thought it is not
> of to game theoretical academic been only worth in the university
> while in the daily life, we have to be worth ourselves of the
> common sense, of the perception fed by the Mass Media and to
> suspend our critical capacity (Adorno, Horkheimer, Lwenthal,
> Benjamin). 
> You identifies me as Argentinean and from the place of the "South"
> I have my discursively enclosed, in circunscripto, they have made
> "relative" my expressions." That is to say, the possibility of to
> rational reflection with valued "universal." Not to be Argentinean
> I understand or not the internal politics of the U.S.A. but if for
> the fact of being civic of the world know that USA makes with all
> us and their consequences in our lives. 
> The paper of the U.S.A. and the fact of being North American
> doesn't mean that you represent neither to the human species
> neither the universal reason, neither represents the humanity's
> cultural ideal ( Adorno, Marcuse). If they represent the most
> important economic and military power in the world. Does How plow
> they legitimated each one of them? This also is not to pathology of
> the modernity? 
> If me or, somebody lives, in this blessed world it should you
> evaluate yourself their life taking into account what demands the
> it U.S.A. to any country it is France, Argentina or Granada I
> believe that it corresponds us at least to understand the
> international politics in which wants to involve us the USA The
> sacred wars or the war for the infinite justice are wars. 
> But ace understanding what feels beyond the frontiers and when it
> is been so up, in the north, it is sometimes difficult, allow me
> that he thinks, reason and argue. You speaks of the international
> politics as if the USA they were another after Berlin 1979. Maybe,
> but: 
> Their government authorizing again to the CIA. to kill is not?
> (This was suspends by Carter). Do plow not they speaking of
> restricting freedoms for to bigger control in their own country?
> Not this intervening in Colombia? Not this maintaining the block of
> Cuba or Iran? Is not it trying to install to base of missiles in
> the Patagonia, Argentina? Not this regulating their internal
> economic problems with the economy of the other countries (foreign
> debt?) is not it involving everybody in to war of vengeance?. 
> Well, you cannot ignore that the international politics of USA has
> a lot to do with these atrocious crimes in NY and Washington. 
> We will be able to discuss the theoretical foundations of the
> terrorist actions eternally but let us don't forget that they plow
> social actions. They plow not only behaviors. Ace social action we
> should from the philosophy and the sociology to know how to
> interpret (verstehen) and to explain (erklren). And if this
> possibility is only limited the North Americans, and its critic
> decreases to "anti-Americanism", then we have not understood what
> is the critical theory completely. 
> And ace Argentinean I will remember to another Argentinean: Felix
> Weil who the Institut fr Sozial Forschung in Frankfurt, the bases
> of the critical theory that you wants to know.
> Cordial greetings, 
> 
> Raul 
> 
>  
>       
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gary E Davis" <gedavis1-AT-yahoo.com>
> To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:40 PM
> Subject: HAB: Reasonable Response & Anti-Americanism
> 
> 
> > This is a response to "Re[6]: September 11 and the demise of the
> > Habermasian project"--though there is no evidence that the
> > "Habermasian" project of modernity faces any demise.
> > 
> > 
> > --- "E.Pavlov" <epavlov-AT-mail.ru> wrote:
> > >... if you
> > > interpret complex political processes with [a dualistic] scheme
> in
> > > mind,I'm afraid there is
> > > no need for me to argue my position.
> > 
> > Does this mean, then, that you are much less interested in being
> > effectively persuasive than you are interested in reassuring
> yourself
> > about what you believe? You earlier postings have asserted views,
> but
> > not argued anything reasonably.
> > 
> > > That is why I don't waste my
> > > time and your time
> > > with giving details about US foreign policy - read Raul's
> messages,
> > > he gives some
> > > details about US policy in Latin America. 
> > 
> > Raul's impassioned assertions about Cold War policy in South
> America
> > have very questionable relevance to the situation of the U.S. and
> > "Islamic" terrorism. I respect Raul's grievance, as an
> Argentinian,
> > but I don't see that he understands the U.S. situation cogently.
> > 
> > > I have also mentioned the
> > > bombing of Sudan
> > > pharmaceutical plant, or Iranian civilian plane shot down in
> 1988
> > > by US military (290
> > > civilians died) and Bush Sr. refused to apologize,
> > 
> > "Mentioning" this and that is not suggestive of cogent reasoning.
> > You're wrong about Bush Sr. He, on behalf of all Americans,
> > apologized clearly, repeatedly, and mournfully. 
> > 
> > >... or gross
> > > overstatements about the number
> > > of casualities in Kosovo "ethnic cleansings" that helped to
> find
> > > support of Americans like
> > > yourself in order to fight in Yugolavia
> > 
> > How many Albanian casualties justify NATO action against Serbian
> > fanaticism? Like you say: 
> > 
> > > well, "it is not the number, I am
> > > terrible concerned about"...
> > 
> > So, might you recognize that you're not too concerned to be clear
> > about what you want others to understand? 
> > 
> > 
> > > Like I already said, I don't support terrorism, but I also
> don't
> > > want to see a new war where
> > > more innocent people will die in this blind retaliation
> campaign
> > -...
> > 
> > What blind retaliation campaign? The U.S. has taken a law
> enforcement
> > attitude toward the Osama bin Laden. No one on this email list,
> > including Fred, has advocated brute retaliation. For a long time,
> the
> > UN has asked the Talibans to turn over Osama bin Laden, in a law
> > enforcement capacity, and the Talibans refused. 
> > 
> > > there are no evidences of
> > > bin Laden involvement, ...
> > 
> > You don't know that. You just don't give credence to U.S
> assertions
> > for *years* that there IS compelling evidence. Your kind of
> attitude
> > here "argues" for Fred's reaction to your earlier postings. 
> > 
> > > and there probably won't be, because to
> > > start a war you don't really
> > > need it ...
> > 
> > Now, what kind of attitude is this? 
> > 
> > > - simply show NY destruction and then bin Laden in the next
> > > episode and American
> > > public will support whatever war US gov. is going to start. 
> > 
> > 
> > The American public would have to be very simple-minded for your
> > assertion to have credence. Do you think the American public is
> this
> > stupid? So, what exactly do you think *Fred*'s problem is? Looks
> like
> > you're supporting his level of reaction. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > [Fred] 
> > > > Because I am an American, I am concerned about both the
> > > possibility of 
> > > > recurrence of terrorist attacks and about the progress of
> > > retaliation for the 
> > > > WTC attack.  
> > > 
> > > [Evgeni]
> > > Excuse my analogy, but during the WWII in occupied regions of
> > > Russia, Germans
> > > had a law of retaliation 
> > 
> > No, I cannot excuse your analogy. It's irrelevant and insulting. 
> > 
> > >... Why did US choose Afghanistan? 
> > 
> > Because Osama bin Laden is, indisputably, there.
> > 
> > > What [is the proof]
> > > that bin Laden is responsible? 
> > 
> > That's a fair question. Are you open to a fair answer? The
> Talibans
> > want proof, too. They, too, turn to modern (public, "sunshine")
> > standards of procedure when it suits them (while turning to their
> own
> > secret deliberations when that suits them).
> > 
> > > Will US fight terrorism in Northern
> > > Ireland? 
> > 
> > Have you heard of any Irish nationalis bombing Americans? As a
> matter
> > of fact, though, the U.S. is largely responsible for mediating
> > various prospects for peace in Northern Ireland.
> > 
> > 
> > > Turkey?
> > 
> > Your point?
> > 
> > > Chechnya? 
> > 
> > The U.S. protested loudly. What exactly do you want, U.S.
> > intervention in Russia? 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > [Fred] 
> > > > .... these vicious attacks, especially in Isreal, ....
> > > > been occuring everywhere: death squads in Latin America, Sri
> > > Lanka, all over 
> > > > Africa, Northern Ireland, etc. Prosecution has been lax, as
> if
> > > these are 
> > > > natural events and nothing can be done.  
> > > 
> > > [Evgeni]
> > > Why then US did nothing about terrorism until it experienced
> it?
> > 
> > The U.S. has been trying to fight terrorism for many years, as a
> > matter of law enforcement and civil collaboration with other
> nations.
> > The U.S. has respected the sovereignty of "harboring" nations,
> and
> > this approach is no longer workable.
> > 
> > > Why [were] 
> > > bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania not interpreted
> > > as acts of war? 
> > 
> > Because they were regarded as crimes.
> > 
> > > Embassies represent the country, why did US only
> > > retaliated by
> > > bombing of Afg. and Sudan? 
> > 
> > The U.S. did not bomb these nations; they bombed a pharmaceutical
> > plant in Sudan and training camps in Afghanistan. You must
> > distinguish the facts of action from interpretation of action.
> Osama
> > bin Laden and his network allegedly operated from the two tiny
> > locations that were precisely bombed. 
> > 
> > 
> > > I don't oppose the elimination of terrorism, I oppose the
> massive
> > > retaliation war that will kill more innocent people and will
> not be
> > > effective against terrorists themselves. 
> > 
> > I'm sure Fred is with you on this. 
> > 
> > > So bin Laden will be
> > > killed, 
> > > so his miliraty group will be destroyed, another one will
> appear,
> > > because
> > > these people have a cause and US attack will not crush them,...
> > 
> > This is exactly the perspective of the U.S. government. Going
> after
> > particular criminals is only part of a long campaign against
> > organized crime. 
> > 
> > > [...and] only give[s terrorists] another argument for their
> cause.
> > I am against throughtless war that will satisfy American
> public...
> > 
> > How about thoughtful interventions that will satisfy victims
> > worldwide and kill the prospect of terrorism becoming biological
> and
> > nuclear?
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > 
> > 
> > Gary
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> > 
> > 
> >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> 
> 
> 
>      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---


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