Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 15:38:11 +0100
From: Iver Orstavik <iver.orstavik-AT-svt.uib.no>
Subject: Re: HAB: Kant & Luhmann



Dear Matt,

just to let you know that your short, but very nicely placed points allowed me
to produce a pleasant mixture of resonant and disonant thoughts!

I agree on all points concerning your interpretation of Habermas here. The
interesting questions to follow up would of course be whether your observations
on agreement and disagreement point to a real and important problem or not,
whether the reliance on everyday language may be overtaxed by Habermas (not to
speak of the almost obvious underestimation of everyday communication in
Luhmann), and finally  whether biology poses serious problems to either of
them? I have not yet looked into "Liberal Eugenics", but my inituition on the
latter count would be that neither should have to worry too much about biology
as long as they avoid waking any dormant metaphysical dogs in their respective
closets. But there might be more to it, I readily confess. I do not have any
strong views about mechanical or cybernetic systems models, except that it
seems to me that Habermas critical views on systems theory seems more
convincing when related to causal systems theory than his critical views on the
communicative systems theory of Luhmann. I am also inclined to think that
Luhmanns version poses a much more serious challenge to Habermas' over all
project of bridging moral and social theory. 

Anyway, the former two issues nevertheless strike me as the most interesting. I
do not have time to get into them now, but thanks again for feeding my
thoughts!

Iver

At 12:53 05.11.01 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Iver,
>
>This post is to modestly recognize what I sense are the sentiments expressed
>in your post. The Habermas/Luhmann *conflict* can - I think - be considered
>almost as a lovers' tiff.... :-) As my supervisor explained to me recently,
>too often you *hate* the ones you *love* !!!
>I think this can also be applied to the Habermas/Foucault *conflict*. As
>well as the Habermas/Derrida *problem*. There is a great deal of common
>ground between ALL of these theoretical combatants that it almost brings
>into disrepute the notion that theoretical discourse ( as against everyday
>discourse) is capable of realizing understanding/agreement.
>
>The tiresome Leninist/Trotskyist et al scholasticisms spring to mind!
>
>Still; I guess that's the nature of the beast ;-) It is reassuring that
>critical theory/emancipatory reason is so devoted to alleviating the
>problems human kind faces...otherwise we would all be out of a job.
>
>Anyway, to attempt to deal with the overt point of your post; only the most
>resilient pre-1970s Habermasian would fail to see the *concessions that JH
>has made to systems theory in _BFN_. However, and this is where I think we
>diverge, the systems model Habermas employs in _BFN_ continues to reject
>central theses of Luhmann's autopoietic model and relies instead on a fairly
>*crusty* mechanical/cybernetic systems model ( just the ones I like!!!). JH
>is explicit in _BFN_. What explodes  closed social subsystems (a la Luhmann)
>is the medium of ordinary language. JH holds onto this distinction
>tenaciously, although - as you correctly point out - the emphasis upon
>*communication* as the crucial currency of the social ontology is to a
>degree shared.
>
>There are other significant rhetorical differences of course. JH regards
>Luhmann's analysis as *still* drawing upon a basic metabiological metaphor.
>Yet - I would suggest - JH has NEVER come to proper terms about what
>place/function the biological stratum has in his own theory construction.
>
>At the risk of delivering my own stream of consciousness about several
>related matters I will close. Nice to hear from you Iver. Trust your
>research is progressing well.
>
>Cheers,
>
>MattP.
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
>     --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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