Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:20:03 -0400
Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production



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I generally sympathize with Bob Scheetz's Jeremiads against Enlightenment, and I
find his contention that iconoclastic Islam contains an apposite critique of
capitalist idolatry quite suggestive.  Which makes me wonder why he apparently
rejects Zionism out of hand.  Is he willing to disregard Biblical prophecy
altogether in his reading of the middle east, or does he merely follow an
anti-Zionist interpretation of prophecy?  To put the question another way, why
does he not attempt a typological reading of contemporary Israeli affairs?  This
would be much more interesting than just goiong on about how nasty Sharon is.
Personally, for whatever its worth, it seems to me that the war is being waged
by both sides with all the means at their disposal, and it is therefore foolish
to complain about "war crimes."  The concept of a "war crime" suggests an
aberration, which indicates a naivete about what is involved in modern warfare.
War is a crime: there are no "war crimes."  The interesting question, in my
view, is what the conflict means.  And specifically for Bob: why do you look
benignly on radical Islam and with hostility on radical Zionism?  I'd have
thought that for non-combatants such as myself (and I presume Bob) the two were
much of a muchness, ethically speaking, and equally portentous, historically
speaking.

Cheers,

David Hawkes

bob scheetz wrote:

> Claus,
> Each of us wrestles with our angel of philosophy from within his own
> problematizations.  For me, as of course all postmoderns, Power is the crux
> of philosophy, the nothing-ness eclipsing the being of meaning.  So,
> regardless the time or discursive framework, it is always philosophically
> primal to "tell the truth and shame the devil".
>
> The atrocity of monday nite in Gaza City with its aspect of scripted
> hollywood spectacle, the F-16 fired laser-guided 1 ton bomb into densely
> populated neighborhood,...the ploy of baiting a trap with the shredded flesh
> of your enemy's children to provoke him into providing you a pretext for
> killing him, ...nso on, is a rare instance of the presencing of the full
> dimensionality of Power, Sharon's lies, his sang-froid, his bottomless
> cruelty, cowardice, cunning,....  Not often does Power emerge so nakedly as
> to render its darkness this visible.  The event deeply merits thinking;...
> in fact, the omission  were precisely that sin of trahison des clercs
> referred  by  David Hawkes.
>
> Finally, habermas pertains via negativa,  by virtue of the problem of the
> unbridged chasm between enlightenment and Power. How does enlightenment
> thinking, CA,  avoid the nihility of petit bourgeois idealism? So like Raul,
> I'd put it to you, Claus, if unwilling to grapple with the Zionists of this
> world, What redeems Enlightened Reason from insipidity ?
>
> bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Claus Hansen <clausdh-AT-tdcspace.dk>
> To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production
>
> > Excuse me for being rather dumb, but I cannot - even with a very good will
> > - see how
> > Mr. Scheetz's original message is related to the discussion of Habermas'
> > thoughts. However,
> > I would be very interesed if Mr. Hawkes would give an explication of this
> > relation as
> > it would prove very valuable in my understanding of Habermas.
> > And I must admit that while I sometimes recognize the need for writing in
> a
> > fashion
> > one cannot immediately discern the philosophical claims being made I dont
> > think this
> > list is the forum for such a kind of writing. One of the conditions that
> > one has to bear
> > in mind when communication is - according to Habermas - to make oneself
> > understood.
> > Perhaps Mr. Scheetz and Mr. Hawkes could try and bear this in mind in the
> > future instead
> > of making implicit claims that make it necessary to interpret their posts
> > to a unnecessary
> > high degree.
> >
> > Claus
> >
> > At 20:01 24-07-02, you wrote:
> > >I, for one, fully support Bob Scheetz's raising of this pertinent
> > >topic.  It defies
> > >belief that Monsieur Dumain is incapable of drawing connections between
> > >Habermasian
> > >philosophy and the politics of the real world.  So implausible is it that
> > >M. Dumain
> > >is genuinely blind to the relevance of Bob's post that we may
> legitimately
> > >wonder
> > >about his motives for attempting to silence debate on this matter.
> Dumain
> > >is not
> > >usually shy of straying into fields that are deemed "irrelevant" by other
> List
> > >Members.  How hypocritical it is of him to don the preacher's garb in
> this
> > >instance--and how interesting is his choice of topics to censor.  Before
> > >long the
> > >self-styled "autodidact" will doubtless begin demanding to see Bob's
> > >"qualifications" for commenting on Israel.  For myself, I would like to
> > >know what
> > >qualifications Dumain thinks he has to just come on here and tell us what
> > >we can
> > >and cannot discuss.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >David Hawkes
> > >
> > >Ralph Dumain wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm not an academic, and I don't disagree with the concern over
> Israel's
> > > > atrocities.  However, this is a Habermas list, and the world is full
> of
> > > > atrocities.  Bob Shitz has acted like a clever little smartass over
> every
> > > > other issue, including Sept. 11, but all of a sudden he's in deadly
> earnest
> > > > over this, without his usual intellectual irony.  And he's taking his
> overt
> > > > political concern to this list without relating it to Habermas's.  So
> what
> > > > gives?  My issue is the stupidity of the left, and the underlying
> mentality
> > > > that makes this behavior possible.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, last night I read Habermas' speech on "Faith and Knowledge" on
> > > > Habermas Online, and while it wasn't bad, it was murky and
> unsatisfactory
> > > > in spots.  I think he gave way too much respect to religion.
> > > >
> > > > At 09:34 AM 07/24/2002 -0300, Raul Rodriguez wrote:
> > > > >For what reason does it serve the philosophy if with her we justify
> the
> > > > >silence in front of the wrongs of the society?. Will it be that there
> are
> > > > >intellectuals from "salon" that alone they enjoy traveling the
> labyrinth
> > > > >of the ideas without giving with an idea that she helps to the
> humanity's
> > > > >self understanding? Will it be that there are intellectuals that can
> > > > >remain silent the crimes of Israel and USA without having shame of
> their
> > > > >sought critical postures in the philosophy?
> > > > >  I ask to myself: does what understand for Critical Theory some of
> these
> > > > > northamerican philosophers?
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Ralph Dumain" <rdumain-AT-igc.org>
> > > > >To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:30 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >| While I don't necessarily disagree with your political take on the
> > > > >| situation, what business do you think you have raising it here,
> without
> > > > >| making any connection to the subject matter of this list?  Isn't
> also
> > > > >| curious that your flippant, ironic, smartass remarks on every other
> > > topic
> > > > >| vanish and you are ever so earnest on this one subject
> > > alone.  Unless you
> > > > >| are from the Middle East yourself, I have to wonder why this
> > > is.  Maybe you
> > > > >| are a crypto-fascist shit yourself.
> > > > >|
> > > > >| At 12:24 AM 07/24/2002 -0400, bob scheetz wrote:
> > > > >| >Like his appearance in force at the Temple Mount to sabotage the
> > > > >| >Clinton-Barak "peace plan," Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's
> > > "great
> > > > >| >success" Mon. nite in Gaza City at the hand of a brave young
> > > Israeli F-16
> > > > >| >pilot is, if possible, even more stunning as an act of strategic
> > > > >| >provocation.  The choice of weapon, hour, location, was clearly
> > > > >designed for
> > > > >| >maximum effect to  enrage the Arab street and precipitate the
> US/Israel
> > > > >into
> > > > >| >an heightened and expanded war with Islam.
> > > > >| >
> > > > >| >Sharon & co have every confidence in their death-grip on the US
> > > politician
> > > > >| >caste; every confidence  it is incapable of meaningful action
> > > (termination
> > > > >| >of the subsidy, withdrawal of weapons licensing) to practice an
> > > independant
> > > > >| >policy and dissuade Islam of its complicity.  They know thence
> that
> > > Arab
> > > > >| >rage will recur to America's enemies for support, and will attempt
> with
> > > > >| >re-doubled fanatic hatred another quantum level of the only
> measure,
> > > > >| >"terror", available.  Infallibly this will vastly raise the credit
> > > of the
> > > > >| >hawks,  Wolfowitz & co,  and finally give them their war with
> Saddam.
> > > > >| >
> > > > >| >The cunning and conception of Sharon and the Zionists, their
> > > single-minded
> > > > >| >pursuit of an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel, imperial hegemon
> > > of the
> > > > >| >entire area, is rather breath-taking; but what's more, (and not
> > > especially
> > > > >| >regarding Sharon, who manifestly has the stomach) is conceiving
> how the
> > > > >| >respective peoples, Israelis, Zionists & Americans, could actually
> > > support,
> > > > >| >not just so unequal battle/butchery, but for such an unrighteous,
> > > > >| >racist/expansionist, cause.  Probably only an Elie Wiesel could
> > > guide us
> > > > >| >thru and reconcile our collective consciences,...so get ready to
> > > see a lot
> > > > >| >of him and  epigones.  How wonderful the resiliance and
> > > transformations of
> > > > >| >the spirit of nazism.
> > > > >| >
> > > > >| >
> > > > >| >
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> > > > >|
> > > > >|
> > > > >|
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> > > > >
> > > > >
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