Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 00:20:47 -0400


This is a multi-part message in MIME format.


David, your characterization is only off by about 180'.  Crime & Justice and solidarity with the victim are the categories of my thinking on Palestine.  And it confounds me no end how any serious sensitive person could fail to marvel at the heroic magnificence of  the resistance,...the only recourse offered these victims is suicide, accession to dispossession, so they make a bomb of their necessity.

thanks
bob
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: David Hawkes
  To: habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
  Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 12:20 PM
  Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production


  I generally sympathize with Bob Scheetz's Jeremiads against Enlightenment, and I find his contention that iconoclastic Islam contains an apposite critique of capitalist idolatry quite suggestive.  Which makes me wonder why he apparently rejects Zionism out of hand.  Is he willing to disregard Biblical prophecy altogether in his reading of the middle east, or does he merely follow an anti-Zionist interpretation of prophecy?  To put the question another way, why does he not attempt a typological reading of contemporary Israeli affairs?  This would be much more interesting than just goiong on about how nasty Sharon is.  Personally, for whatever its worth, it seems to me that the war is being waged by both sides with all the means at their disposal, and it is therefore foolish to complain about "war crimes."  The concept of a "war crime" suggests an aberration, which indicates a naivete about what is involved in modern warfare.  War is a crime: there are no "war crimes."  The interesting question, in my view, is what the conflict means.  And specifically for Bob: why do you look benignly on radical Islam and with hostility on radical Zionism?  I'd have thought that for non-combatants such as myself (and I presume Bob) the two were much of a muchness, ethically speaking, and equally portentous, historically speaking.     
  Cheers,

  David Hawkes

  bob scheetz wrote:

    Claus,
    Each of us wrestles with our angel of philosophy from within his own 
    problematizations.  For me, as of course all postmoderns, Power is the crux
    of philosophy, the nothing-ness eclipsing the being of meaning.  So, 
    regardless the time or discursive framework, it is always philosophically
    primal to "tell the truth and shame the devil".
    The atrocity of monday nite in Gaza City with its aspect of scripted 
    hollywood spectacle, the F-16 fired laser-guided 1 ton bomb into densely
    populated neighborhood,...the ploy of baiting a trap with the shredded flesh
    of your enemy's children to provoke him into providing you a pretext for
    killing him, ...nso on, is a rare instance of the presencing of the full
    dimensionality of Power, Sharon's lies, his sang-froid, his bottomless
    cruelty, cowardice, cunning,....  Not often does Power emerge so nakedly as
    to render its darkness this visible.  The event deeply merits thinking;...
    in fact, the omission  were precisely that sin of trahison des clercs
    referred  by  David Hawkes.

    Finally, habermas pertains via negativa,  by virtue of the problem of the
    unbridged chasm between enlightenment and Power. How does enlightenment
    thinking, CA,  avoid the nihility of petit bourgeois idealism? So like Raul,
    I'd put it to you, Claus, if unwilling to grapple with the Zionists of this
    world, What redeems Enlightened Reason from insipidity ?

    bob

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Claus Hansen <clausdh-AT-tdcspace.dk>
    To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
    Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:49 PM
    Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production

    > Excuse me for being rather dumb, but I cannot - even with a very good will
    > - see how
    > Mr. Scheetz's original message is related to the discussion of Habermas'
    > thoughts. However,
    > I would be very interesed if Mr. Hawkes would give an explication of this
    > relation as
    > it would prove very valuable in my understanding of Habermas.
    > And I must admit that while I sometimes recognize the need for writing in
    a
    > fashion
    > one cannot immediately discern the philosophical claims being made I dont
    > think this
    > list is the forum for such a kind of writing. One of the conditions that
    > one has to bear
    > in mind when communication is - according to Habermas - to make oneself
    > understood.
    > Perhaps Mr. Scheetz and Mr. Hawkes could try and bear this in mind in the
    > future instead
    > of making implicit claims that make it necessary to interpret their posts
    > to a unnecessary
    > high degree.
    >
    > Claus
    >
    > At 20:01 24-07-02, you wrote:
    > >I, for one, fully support Bob Scheetz's raising of this pertinent 
    > >topic.  It defies
    > >belief that Monsieur Dumain is incapable of drawing connections between
    > >Habermasian
    > >philosophy and the politics of the real world.  So implausible is it that
    > >M. Dumain
    > >is genuinely blind to the relevance of Bob's post that we may
    legitimately
    > >wonder
    > >about his motives for attempting to silence debate on this matter.
    Dumain
    > >is not
    > >usually shy of straying into fields that are deemed "irrelevant" by other
    List
    > >Members.  How hypocritical it is of him to don the preacher's garb in
    this
    > >instance--and how interesting is his choice of topics to censor.  Before
    > >long the
    > >self-styled "autodidact" will doubtless begin demanding to see Bob's
    > >"qualifications" for commenting on Israel.  For myself, I would like to
    > >know what
    > >qualifications Dumain thinks he has to just come on here and tell us what
    > >we can
    > >and cannot discuss.
    > >
    > >Cheers,
    > >
    > >David Hawkes
    > >
    > >Ralph Dumain wrote:
    > >
    > > > I'm not an academic, and I don't disagree with the concern over
    Israel's
    > > > atrocities.  However, this is a Habermas list, and the world is full
    of
    > > > atrocities.  Bob Shitz has acted like a clever little smartass over
    every
    > > > other issue, including Sept. 11, but all of a sudden he's in deadly
    earnest
    > > > over this, without his usual intellectual irony.  And he's taking his
    overt
    > > > political concern to this list without relating it to Habermas's.  So
    what
    > > > gives?  My issue is the stupidity of the left, and the underlying
    mentality
    > > > that makes this behavior possible.
    > > >
    > > > BTW, last night I read Habermas' speech on "Faith and Knowledge" on
    > > > Habermas Online, and while it wasn't bad, it was murky and
    unsatisfactory
    > > > in spots.  I think he gave way too much respect to religion.
    > > >
    > > > At 09:34 AM 07/24/2002 -0300, Raul Rodriguez wrote:
    > > > >For what reason does it serve the philosophy if with her we justify
    the
    > > > >silence in front of the wrongs of the society?. Will it be that there
    are
    > > > >intellectuals from "salon" that alone they enjoy traveling the
    labyrinth
    > > > >of the ideas without giving with an idea that she helps to the
    humanity's
    > > > >self understanding? Will it be that there are intellectuals that can
    > > > >remain silent the crimes of Israel and USA without having shame of
    their
    > > > >sought critical postures in the philosophy?
    > > > >  I ask to myself: does what understand for Critical Theory some of
    these
    > > > > northamerican philosophers?
    > > > >
    > > > >----- Original Message -----
    > > > >From: "Ralph Dumain" <rdumain-AT-igc.org>
    > > > >To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
    > > > >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:30 AM
    > > > >Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >| While I don't necessarily disagree with your political take on the
    > > > >| situation, what business do you think you have raising it here,
    without
    > > > >| making any connection to the subject matter of this list?  Isn't
    also
    > > > >| curious that your flippant, ironic, smartass remarks on every other
    > > topic
    > > > >| vanish and you are ever so earnest on this one subject
    > > alone.  Unless you
    > > > >| are from the Middle East yourself, I have to wonder why this
    > > is.  Maybe you
    > > > >| are a crypto-fascist shit yourself.
    > > > >|
    > > > >| At 12:24 AM 07/24/2002 -0400, bob scheetz wrote:
    > > > >| >Like his appearance in force at the Temple Mount to sabotage the
    > > > >| >Clinton-Barak "peace plan," Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's
    > > "great
    > > > >| >success" Mon. nite in Gaza City at the hand of a brave young
    > > Israeli F-16
    > > > >| >pilot is, if possible, even more stunning as an act of strategic
    > > > >| >provocation.  The choice of weapon, hour, location, was clearly
    > > > >designed for
    > > > >| >maximum effect to  enrage the Arab street and precipitate the
    US/Israel
    > > > >into
    > > > >| >an heightened and expanded war with Islam.
    > > > >| >
    > > > >| >Sharon & co have every confidence in their death-grip on the US
    > > politician
    > > > >| >caste; every confidence  it is incapable of meaningful action
    > > (termination
    > > > >| >of the subsidy, withdrawal of weapons licensing) to practice an
    > > independant
    > > > >| >policy and dissuade Islam of its complicity.  They know thence
    that
    > > Arab
    > > > >| >rage will recur to America's enemies for support, and will attempt
    with
    > > > >| >re-doubled fanatic hatred another quantum level of the only
    measure,
    > > > >| >"terror", available.  Infallibly this will vastly raise the credit
    > > of the
    > > > >| >hawks,  Wolfowitz & co,  and finally give them their war with
    Saddam.
    > > > >| >
    > > > >| >The cunning and conception of Sharon and the Zionists, their
    > > single-minded
    > > > >| >pursuit of an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel, imperial hegemon
    > > of the
    > > > >| >entire area, is rather breath-taking; but what's more, (and not
    > > especially
    > > > >| >regarding Sharon, who manifestly has the stomach) is conceiving
    how the
    > > > >| >respective peoples, Israelis, Zionists & Americans, could actually
    > > support,
    > > > >| >not just so unequal battle/butchery, but for such an unrighteous,
    > > > >| >racist/expansionist, cause.  Probably only an Elie Wiesel could
    > > guide us
    > > > >| >thru and reconcile our collective consciences,...so get ready to
    > > see a lot
    > > > >| >of him and  epigones.  How wonderful the resiliance and
    > > transformations of
    > > > >| >the spirit of nazism.
    > > > >| >
    > > > >| >
    > > > >| >
    > > > >| >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu     > > > >|
    > > > >|
    > > > >|
    > > > >|      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >---
    > > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > > >Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 15/07/2002
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
    > > >
    > > >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
    > >
    > >
    > >
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HTML VERSION:

----- Original Message -----

From: David Hawkes

To: habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu

Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 12:20 PM

Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production

I generally sympathize with Bob Scheetz's Jeremiads against Enlightenment, and I find his contention that iconoclastic Islam contains an apposite critique of capitalist idolatry quite suggestive.  Which makes me wonder why he apparently rejects Zionism out of hand.  Is he willing to disregard Biblical prophecy altogether in his reading of the middle east, or does he merely follow an anti-Zionist interpretation of prophecy?  To put the question another way, why does he not attempt a typological reading of contemporary Israeli affairs?  This would be much more interesting than just goiong on about how nasty Sharon is.  Personally, for whatever its worth, it seems to me that the war is being waged by both sides with all the means at their disposal, and it is therefore foolish to complain about "war crimes."  The concept of a "war crime" suggests an aberration, which indicates a naivete about what is involved in modern warfare.  War is a crime: there are no "war crimes."  The interesting question, in my view, is what the conflict means.  And specifically for Bob: why do you look benignly on radical Islam and with hostility on radical Zionism?  I'd have thought that for non-combatants such as myself (and I presume Bob) the two were much of a muchness, ethically speaking, and equally portentous, historically speaking.     

Cheers,

David Hawkes

bob scheetz wrote:

Claus,
Each of us wrestles with our angel of philosophy from within his own
problematizations.  For me, as of course all postmoderns, Power is the crux
of philosophy, the nothing-ness eclipsing the being of meaning.  So,
regardless the time or discursive framework, it is always philosophically
primal to "tell the truth and shame the devil".

The atrocity of monday nite in Gaza City with its aspect of scripted
hollywood spectacle, the F-16 fired laser-guided 1 ton bomb into densely
populated neighborhood,...the ploy of baiting a trap with the shredded flesh
of your enemy's children to provoke him into providing you a pretext for
killing him, ...nso on, is a rare instance of the presencing of the full
dimensionality of Power, Sharon's lies, his sang-froid, his bottomless
cruelty, cowardice, cunning,....  Not often does Power emerge so nakedly as
to render its darkness this visible.  The event deeply merits thinking;...
in fact, the omission  were precisely that sin of trahison des clercs
referred  by  David Hawkes.

Finally, habermas pertains via negativa,  by virtue of the problem of the
unbridged chasm between enlightenment and Power. How does enlightenment
thinking, CA,  avoid the nihility of petit bourgeois idealism? So like Raul,
I'd put it to you, Claus, if unwilling to grapple with the Zionists of this
world, What redeems Enlightened Reason from insipidity ?

bob

----- Original Message -----
From: Claus Hansen <clausdh-AT-tdcspace.dk>
To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production

> Excuse me for being rather dumb, but I cannot - even with a very good will
> - see how
> Mr. Scheetz's original message is related to the discussion of Habermas'
> thoughts. However,
> I would be very interesed if Mr. Hawkes would give an explication of this
> relation as
> it would prove very valuable in my understanding of Habermas.
> And I must admit that while I sometimes recognize the need for writing in
a
> fashion
> one cannot immediately discern the philosophical claims being made I dont
> think this
> list is the forum for such a kind of writing. One of the conditions that
> one has to bear
> in mind when communication is - according to Habermas - to make oneself
> understood.
> Perhaps Mr. Scheetz and Mr. Hawkes could try and bear this in mind in the
> future instead
> of making implicit claims that make it necessary to interpret their posts
> to a unnecessary
> high degree.
>
> Claus
>
> At 20:01 24-07-02, you wrote:
> >I, for one, fully support Bob Scheetz's raising of this pertinent
> >topic.  It defies
> >belief that Monsieur Dumain is incapable of drawing connections between
> >Habermasian
> >philosophy and the politics of the real world.  So implausible is it that
> >M. Dumain
> >is genuinely blind to the relevance of Bob's post that we may
legitimately
> >wonder
> >about his motives for attempting to silence debate on this matter.
Dumain
> >is not
> >usually shy of straying into fields that are deemed "irrelevant" by other
List
> >Members.  How hypocritical it is of him to don the preacher's garb in
this
> >instance--and how interesting is his choice of topics to censor.  Before
> >long the
> >self-styled "autodidact" will doubtless begin demanding to see Bob's
> >"qualifications" for commenting on Israel.  For myself, I would like to
> >know what
> >qualifications Dumain thinks he has to just come on here and tell us what
> >we can
> >and cannot discuss.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >David Hawkes
> >
> >Ralph Dumain wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not an academic, and I don't disagree with the concern over
Israel's
> > > atrocities.  However, this is a Habermas list, and the world is full
of
> > > atrocities.  Bob Shitz has acted like a clever little smartass over
every
> > > other issue, including Sept. 11, but all of a sudden he's in deadly
earnest
> > > over this, without his usual intellectual irony.  And he's taking his
overt
> > > political concern to this list without relating it to Habermas's.  So
what
> > > gives?  My issue is the stupidity of the left, and the underlying
mentality
> > > that makes this behavior possible.
> > >
> > > BTW, last night I read Habermas' speech on "Faith and Knowledge" on
> > > Habermas Online, and while it wasn't bad, it was murky and
unsatisfactory
> > > in spots.  I think he gave way too much respect to religion.
> > >
> > > At 09:34 AM 07/24/2002 -0300, Raul Rodriguez wrote:
> > > >For what reason does it serve the philosophy if with her we justify
the
> > > >silence in front of the wrongs of the society?. Will it be that there
are
> > > >intellectuals from "salon" that alone they enjoy traveling the
labyrinth
> > > >of the ideas without giving with an idea that she helps to the
humanity's
> > > >self understanding? Will it be that there are intellectuals that can
> > > >remain silent the crimes of Israel and USA without having shame of
their
> > > >sought critical postures in the philosophy?
> > > >  I ask to myself: does what understand for Critical Theory some of
these
> > > > northamerican philosophers?
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Ralph Dumain" <rdumain-AT-igc.org>
> > > >To: <habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:30 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: HAB: lessons in Power, Sharon's latest production
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >| While I don't necessarily disagree with your political take on the
> > > >| situation, what business do you think you have raising it here,
without
> > > >| making any connection to the subject matter of this list?  Isn't
also
> > > >| curious that your flippant, ironic, smartass remarks on every other
> > topic
> > > >| vanish and you are ever so earnest on this one subject
> > alone.  Unless you
> > > >| are from the Middle East yourself, I have to wonder why this
> > is.  Maybe you
> > > >| are a crypto-fascist shit yourself.
> > > >|
> > > >| At 12:24 AM 07/24/2002 -0400, bob scheetz wrote:
> > > >| >Like his appearance in force at the Temple Mount to sabotage the
> > > >| >Clinton-Barak "peace plan," Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's
> > "great
> > > >| >success" Mon. nite in Gaza City at the hand of a brave young
> > Israeli F-16
> > > >| >pilot is, if possible, even more stunning as an act of strategic
> > > >| >provocation.  The choice of weapon, hour, location, was clearly
> > > >designed for
> > > >| >maximum effect to  enrage the Arab street and precipitate the
US/Israel
> > > >into
> > > >| >an heightened and expanded war with Islam.
> > > >| >
> > > >| >Sharon & co have every confidence in their death-grip on the US
> > politician
> > > >| >caste; every confidence  it is incapable of meaningful action
> > (termination
> > > >| >of the subsidy, withdrawal of weapons licensing) to practice an
> > independant
> > > >| >policy and dissuade Islam of its complicity.  They know thence
that
> > Arab
> > > >| >rage will recur to America's enemies for support, and will attempt
with
> > > >| >re-doubled fanatic hatred another quantum level of the only
measure,
> > > >| >"terror", available.  Infallibly this will vastly raise the credit
> > of the
> > > >| >hawks,  Wolfowitz & co,  and finally give them their war with
Saddam.
> > > >| >
> > > >| >The cunning and conception of Sharon and the Zionists, their
> > single-minded
> > > >| >pursuit of an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel, imperial hegemon
> > of the
> > > >| >entire area, is rather breath-taking; but what's more, (and not
> > especially
> > > >| >regarding Sharon, who manifestly has the stomach) is conceiving
how the
> > > >| >respective peoples, Israelis, Zionists & Americans, could actually
> > support,
> > > >| >not just so unequal battle/butchery, but for such an unrighteous,
> > > >| >racist/expansionist, cause.  Probably only an Elie Wiesel could
> > guide us
> > > >| >thru and reconcile our collective consciences,...so get ready to
> > see a lot
> > > >| >of him and  epigones.  How wonderful the resiliance and
> > transformations of
> > > >| >the spirit of nazism.
> > > >| >
> > > >| >
> > > >| >
> > > >| >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> > > >|
> > > >|
> > > >|
> > > >|      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---
> > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > >Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 15/07/2002
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> > >
> > >      --- from list habermas-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
>
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