Subject: Re: [HAB:] re: Getting ethical by getting highly self-identical
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:22:13 +0100


Fred,

I'm not so sure about the "diplomatic" part of communication
that you write about, especially since I recently had an expert
in "diplomacy" behave in a rather undiplomatic way towards
me.  Communicative competency can only come about if people
speak from the same world-view, and I don't think Habermas's
is the most widely understood view, or the most cohesive one,
to draw individuals together.  If an ideal-speech situation means
submitting to Habermas's interpretation of what is best or right,
and if that's not something I can do, ie if neither the strategic nor
the communicative is effective, then it's hardly an ideal situation
at all, is it.  In fact, it's barely tolerable.

Sue McPherson


>
>
> Sue,
>
> Let's dissect the work into the empirical or reality system and the
> normative or legal/moral/ethical dimension.  What is happening in the  everyday or
> political perspective in the world, in each of our worlds, involves  an
> historical-psychological-social perspective which Habermas, and most other  social
> theorists, find problematic.  Basic problems dealing with conflict  and crime are
> obvious.  Habermas presents a theory that  addresses metaphysical and
> epistemological issues in philosophy related to  both ontology (our understanding of
> our purpose or being) and phylogeny (if  you'll permit the casting of an
> evolutionary dimension into our historical and  developmental experience).  The
> primary issue is the acceptability or  validity of actions as either specific
> movement events (actions on others  or on objects) or as speech acts.  Habermas
> then distinguishes between  communicative action which involves the
> perspective-taking of others, a  reciprocal (albeit too often asymmetrical) taking of
the
> others perspective, the  offering of a claim (in act or speech), and the
> acceptance or rejection of the  validity of that claim by the other or hearer or
> interlocutor, or object acted  upon...  Strategic action, otoh, does not include
> any intersubjective  moment -- the response of the other only matters if the
> other follows the  dictate of the strategy, goes along and does not protest,
> or acts strategically  in response.  In SA there is no dialogue over the
> validity of the  communicative action, in fact, the issue of validity is
> disregarded.   Falling in line is a typical reaction to strategic action imperatives,
> whereas,  discussion over validity is the hallmark of communicative action
> orientations,  that is, there is an effort by both interlocutors, or within the
> community, to  reach agreement, or to strive to reach agreement without coercion.
>
> Well, Sue, the next big issue is why communicative action often does not
> come to pass and that SA is the usual "norm."  One major reason why SA  seems to
> predominate is because of the communicative competency of most  individuals
> and then there is ideology.  Here on the list, we primarily try  to keep the
> conversation as rational as possible in terms of CA while increasing  each others
> awareness and knowledge.  But, I think everyone will agree that  in the
> reality system, SA predominates and CA politicizes.  The objecting  to invalid
> action or actions which are deceptive or impersonal (instrumental),  excluding or
> alienating, involves legal redress, political protest and social  movement, as
> well as juridical and legislative influence, not to mention  theoretical
> advances.  Effecting a change in the desired direction: towards  liberty,
> equality, a more stable everyday world, through communication (read  diplomacy) and
> thought has its enemies, not the least of which is ignorance and  incompetence.
>
> Fred
>
>
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