From: "Michael Staples" <mstaples-AT-sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Identity and Difference (Austrag, Stambaugh)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:12:46 -0800


Well Oky-Doky then! Thank you for the material here, Michael. This is going
to take a bit of thought.

Michael S.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Eldred" <artefact-AT-t-online.de>
To: <heidegger-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: Identity and Difference (Austrag, Stambaugh)


> Cologne 22-Jan-2002
>
> Michael Staples schrieb  Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:40:20 -0800:
>
> >  Michael E.,Well, it took a while but I found my way back to the list!
> > Just got back from a vacation in Maui. Didn't care much for Maui,
> > though (except for the Hana side). It is mostly parkin lots, freeways
> > and golf courses. Save your money and go to Newport Beach.Anyway, I
> > took two books with me. These were two very tough books -- Identity
> > and Difference, and a book entitled On the Truth of Being, Reflections
> > on Heidegger's Later Philosophy by Joseph Kockelmans. Both of these
> > are awfully tough going, I'd say, especially Identity and Difference.
> > Both Kockelmans and Joan Stambaugh (trans. of Identity and Difference)
> > point out how important this whole identity/difference thing became
> > for H. Kockleman's quoting Richardson and Heidegger insists that the
> > entire metaphsical tradition stems from the identity/difference issue.
> > But perhaps you could thow a bit of light on what the issue is. On the
> > difference side, I think I understand the point. Here, we are talking
> > about the Ontological Difference (right?). But what is the "Identity"
> > side? I wish Joan Stambaugh had spelled this out just a bit more in
> > her introduction.Michael S.
>
> Michael,
> Already for Plato in _Sophistaes_ the core of his famous dialectic turns
> on the distinction between _to auto_ (the same) and _to heteron_ (the
> other).
>
> To start with I simply quote from two e-mails I wrote some time ago (see
> below).
>
> If my criticisms of Stambaugh's translation hold water, then it is no
> wonder that your reading of "Identity and Difference" was very tough
> going.
>
> Michael
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> _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Dr Michael Eldred -_-_-
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>
> Empfnger:       heidegger-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> Kopienempfnger:
> Datum:           04 Jan 1998 13:23 GMT
> Anlage:
> Betreff:         Re: Nietzsche's metaphysics/3 Austrag
>
> Cologne, 04 January 1998
>
> This is a post from some time back which I had to put on hold in
> December, but
> which has been nagging at me ever since.
>
> henry sholar schrieb u.a.:
> > "We attain to the nearness of the
> > historic only in that sudden moment of a recall
> > in thinking.  The same holds true for the
> > experience of the given character of that difference
> > of Being and beings to which corresponds a
> > given interpretation of beings as such.  What
> > has been said holds true above all also for our
> > attempt to step back out of the oblivion of the
> > difference as such, to think this difference as the
> > perdurance of unconcealing overcoming and of
> > self-keeping arrival.  If we listen more closely, we
> > shall realize, of course, that in this discussion
> > about perdurance we have already allowed the
> > essential past to speak inasmuch as we are thinking
> > of unconcealing and keeping concealed, of transition
> > (transcendence), and of arrival (presence).  In fact, it
> > may be that this discussion, which assigns the
> > difference of Being and beings to perdurance as
> > the approach to their essence, even brings to light
> > something all-pervading which pervades Being's
> > destiny from its beginning to its completion.  Yet
> > it remains difficult to say how this all-pervasiveness
> > is to be thought, if it is neither something universal,
> > valid in all cases, nor a law guaranteeing the necessity
> > of a process in the sense of the dialectical."
> > (IBID, pages 67-8)
>
> Henry, this is just one small part of what you quoted in the above
> posting.
> I was interested to read these passages of English translation and,
> coming
> across the word "perdurance", was curious to find out what this word is
> rendering. Curiosity turned to bemusement, and bemusement to shock and
> dismay
> when I discovered that "perdurance" corresponds to "Austrag" in the
> original.
> This latter word is one of the most important words in the entire text
> entitled
> _Identitaet und Differenz_. Perdurance (Ausdauer, Dauer) has nothing at
> all to
> do with _Austrag_, which means literally "out-carry" or "carry apart
> from each
> other". It is a neologism of Heidegger's, and first occurs in the
> decisive
> formulation of the difference on page 62f of the German edition:
>
> "Dieser [der Unter-Schied] vergibt erst und haelt auseinander das
> Zwischen,
> worin Ueberkommnis und Ankunft zueinander gehalten,
> auseinander-zueinander
> getragen sind. Die Differenz von Sein und Seiendem ist als der
> Unter-Schied von
> Ueberkommnis und Ankunft der entbergend-bergende Austrag beider. Im
> Austrag
> waltet Lichtung des sich verhuellend Verschliessenden, welches Walten
> das Aus-
> und Zueinander von Ueberkommnis und Ankunft vergibt."
>
> Herakleitos' "diapheromenon" has to be kept in mind [Andenken] here --
> carrying
> apart from each other, which is where "difference" comes from: carrying
> apart
> from. Heidegger's word "Austrag" is an attempt to translate "difference"
> into
> German in a more thoughtful way. My rough translation (carrying across)
> of the
> abovequoted passage runs:
>
> "This [dif-ference] first grants and holds apart the between in which
> coming-over and arrival are held to each other, are carried apart from
> and
> towards each other. The difference of being and beings is as the
> dif-ference of
> coming-over and arrival, the decrypting-crypting (sheltering) carrying
> apart of
> both. In the carrying-apart, the clearing of self-covering enclosing
> holds sway,
> and this holding-sway grants the from-each-other and to-each-other of
> coming-over and arrival."
>
> The passage cited by Henry trans-lates in my carrying-across as:
>
> "We only come close to what is sent through the suddenness of the moment
> of
> thinking-of [Andenken, commemorative thinking]. This holds also for the
> experience of the individual stamp of the difference of being and
> beings, to
> which corresponds respectively an interpretation of beings as such. What
> has
> been said holds above all for our attempt, in the step back out of the
> oblivion
> to the difference as such, to think of this [difference] as the
> carrying-apart
> of decrypting coming-over and self-crypting/sheltering arrival. To be
> sure, to a
> more precise listening it is already announced that in this saying of
> carrying-apart [not "discussion about perdurance!!! ME] we already allow
> what
> has-been to come to language insofar as we think of decrypting and
> crypting, of
> transition (transcendence) and arrival (presence). Perhaps through this
> discussion/locating of the difference between being and beings in
> carrying-apart
> as the preliminary locus [Vorort] of its essencing, something pervasive
> even
> appears which pervades the sending of being from the beginning right up
> to its
> completion. But it remains difficult to say how this pervasiveness could
> be
> thought if it is neither something general which holds in every case,
> nor a law
> which ensures the necessity of a process in the sense of the dialectic."
>
> With an inadequate translation of a single word (in this case: Austrag),
>
> insuperable obstacles to understanding Heidegger can be erected which
> could
> provide a false scent for centuries.
>
> Michael
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>
> _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Dr Michael Eldred -_-_-_
>
> _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Philosophy of Being/trans.
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:14:59 +0200
> From: Michael Eldred <artefact-AT-t-online.de>
> Organization: artefact t&t
> To: heidegger-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>
> Cologne, 24-Sep-1999
>
> Stuart,
>
> ...
>
> I had another look at my post to Henry Sholar of 04-Jan-1998 regarding
> the
> translation of a passage in _Identity and Difference_. The climax of
> this text
> is a new formulation of the ontological difference as _Austrag_. By
> rendering
> "Austrag" with the temporal word "perdurance" in one of the core
> passages,
> Stambaugh vitiates her entire enterprise in the sense that she doesn't
> get
> "Austrag" across. It seems that Stambaugh confused "Austrag" (a
> neologism)
> somewhat with "Ausdauer" ("endurance", "staying power") and failed to
> see
> the connection to the Greek word for difference: _diaphora_, which means
>
> literally "carrying apart", "Aus-trag" as in Heraclitus' saying:
>
> _ou xyniasin hokos diapheromenon heoutoi homologeei, palintropos
> harmonie
> hokosper toxou kai lyres_ (Frag. 51)
>
> "They do not bring it together (understand) how, in being carried apart
> (differing), there is a gathering with itself (in the logos), a binding
> turned back on itself  like that of the bow and the lyre."
>
> Best regards,
> Michael
> _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-  artefact text and translation _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
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> _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Dr Michael Eldred -_-_-
> _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
>
>
> > I know you haven't criticised Stambaugh by name, but she is the
> translator
> > of Identity and Difference, and plenty more (the new version of B&T,
> On Time
> > and Being, the Schelling book, etc.) I seem to remember Krell being
> > mentioned but whatever.
> >
> > Other than that, what you say seems sensible and interesting. Thanks
> for the
> > clarification - can anyone else shed light on the Sallis issue? I
> wonder if
> > it is important, given that he and Krell seem to head one of the two
> main US
> > Heidegger schools (Dreyfus the other one). This is Dreyfus' own
> > characterisation, as i recall. Put crudely, Sallis and Krell seem to
> be
> > trying to retain Heidegger's own idiom in their work on him; Dreyfus
> is more
> > interested in what he can do with him. Language is clearly central.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Stuart
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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