From: "John Foster" <borealis-AT-mercuryspeed.com>
Subject: Re: US Violates Afghan Prisoners Rights to Life...and Justice
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:15:38 -0800


This is a multi-part message in MIME format.


Paul, read this first, then write back to me either on this list or personally. It is a Heidegger list so how does 'illegality' become an 'interpretation' according to an 'analysis' lending itself to an 'ontologico-existential' interpretation of conflict?

Is not the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter forms of authenticity (mitsein) rather than 'one-sidedness'? There is an entity called the UN which incidentally has resolution requiring the state of Isreal to release land it is illegally possesses in Palestine after 1967. Why are there 47 UN Security Council Resolutions which Isreal has seriously and materially breached? Nations are treated like persons under law; they like corporations are also treated as persons.

What does Heidegger state about 'deceit' and 'lying'?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11392430&method=full

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=19

thanks

john
  From: Paul Murphy
  To: heidegger-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:39 AM
  Subject: Re: US Violates Afghan Prisoners Rights to Life...and Justice


  it is quite plain that every letter of the Geneva Convention is open to interpretation.  If US legal experts have declared the war the Taleban never declared on the US 'illegal' then it only concerns us to learn one thing: who won and who lost.  The victors get to do what they like.  Since the Taleban couldn't immediately defeat this aggression then they don't have a leg to stand on.  nor can they afford expensive lawyers, all of them either being dead, gaoled or on the run.  In any case, since the are former US special forces, hopefully the ones that are still alive will have been taught sufficient survival techniques to get through the torments of their captors.  Once they get out of gaol or finish their flight, they can always cut a funk/reggae/punk album and sell it with the amazing street cred they will then no doubt enjoy.   
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Jason Stuart
    To: heidegger-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
    Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:15 PM
    Subject: Re: US Violates Afghan Prisoners Rights to Life...and Justice



     John Foster <borealis-AT-mercuryspeed.com> wrote:

      Hi Bob,

      The Geneva Convention on War states that every POW must be
      treated with dignity. However Afghan Taliban POW's are not
      being treated like POW's by the US. Many of the Afghan
      soldiers will not be tried in a legal court, but many
      certainly will be executed by the US.

    The bizarre latter portion of this statement notwithstanding ("executed?"), you do bring up a good point about those detained in Guantanamo.  They're still at Camp Xray, right?  The way the U.S. has avoided possible interpretations of international law on this is to name the Afghans "illegal combatants" and not "prisoners of war."  Therefore they may be detained without representation or the due process laws of either nation (though what sort of due process laws the Taliban had might also make for interesting disussion).  So the wording moots your point--they're not being treated like POWs (though conditions are hardly wretched) because they are not, technically, POWs.  Therefore the Geneva rules do not apply.  Besides, the U.S. has worked so hard to dilute the power of the ICC that their possible action on this is likely to be of no consequence. 

      This is strictly
      against the Geneva Conventions pertaining to POW's. Even the
      Nazi leaders were tried in a legal court where rules were
      applied. The US is quilty of war crimes....

    I don't think the trials of Nazi leaders and possible legal enquiries into U.S. actions are comparable here--I don't even think the concept of international law is vaguely the same at this point.  And "quilt" generally requires proof. 

    JS




    !-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!

     "...even if he recopied them later, as I suspect he sometimes did, he marked his card or cards not with the date of his final adjustments, but with that of his Corrected Draft or first Fair Copy. I mean, he preserved the date of actual creation rather than that of second or third thoughts. There is a very loud amusement park right in front of my present lodgings."





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HTML VERSION:

From: Paul Murphy

To: heidegger-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu

Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:39 AM

Subject: Re: US Violates Afghan Prisoners Rights to Life...and Justice

it is quite plain that every letter of the Geneva Convention is open to interpretation.  If US legal experts have declared the war the Taleban never declared on the US 'illegal' then it only concerns us to learn one thing: who won and who lost.  The victors get to do what they like.  Since the Taleban couldn't immediately defeat this aggression then they don't have a leg to stand on.  nor can they afford expensive lawyers, all of them either being dead, gaoled or on the run.  In any case, since the are former US special forces, hopefully the ones that are still alive will have been taught sufficient survival techniques to get through the torments of their captors.  Once they get out of gaol or finish their flight, they can always cut a funk/reggae/punk album and sell it with the amazing street cred they will then no doubt enjoy.   

----- Original Message -----

From: Jason Stuart

To: heidegger-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu

Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: US Violates Afghan Prisoners Rights to Life...and Justice

 John Foster <borealis-AT-mercuryspeed.com> wrote:

Hi Bob,

The Geneva Convention on War states that every POW must be
treated with dignity. However Afghan Taliban POW's are not
being treated like POW's by the US. Many of the Afghan
soldiers will not be tried in a legal court, but many
certainly will be executed by the US.

The bizarre latter portion of this statement notwithstanding ("executed?"), you do bring up a good point about those detained in Guantanamo.  They're still at Camp Xray, right?  The way the U.S. has avoided possible interpretations of international law on this is to name the Afghans "illegal combatants" and not "prisoners of war."  Therefore they may be detained without representation or the due process laws of either nation (though what sort of due process laws the Taliban had might also make for interesting disussion).  So the wording moots your point--they're not being treated like POWs (though conditions are hardly wretched) because they are not, technically, POWs.  Therefore the Geneva rules do not apply.  Besides, the U.S. has worked so hard to dilute the power of the ICC that their possible action on this is likely to be of no consequence. 

This is strictly
against the Geneva Conventions pertaining to POW's. Even the
Nazi leaders were tried in a legal court where rules were
applied. The US is quilty of war crimes....

I don't think the trials of Nazi leaders and possible legal enquiries into U.S. actions are comparable here--I don't even think the concept of international law is vaguely the same at this point.  And "quilt" generally requires proof. 

JS

!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!

 "...even if he recopied them later, as I suspect he sometimes did, he marked his card or cards not with the date of his final adjustments, but with that of his Corrected Draft or first Fair Copy. I mean, he preserved the date of actual creation rather than that of second or third thoughts. There is a very loud amusement park right in front of my present lodgings."

---

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