File spoon-archives/list-proposals.archive/list-proposals_1996/list-proposals.1996, message 60


From: "Hans Despain" <DESPAIN-AT-econ.sbs.utah.edu>
Date:          Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:32:07 GMT-700
Subject:       Re: info sheet for marxism2 -Reply


Expulsion should not be a subjective decision!!!  

In my opinion the PCP have not committed anything worthy of 
expulsion (at least beyond other posts on marxism).  They have replied 
to others you have inquiried from them a response.  Many list members 
have been communicating with them.  If no one wished to interact with 
them, and they continued sending posts, then there is a serious 
problem.

Marxism begs a second list.  These lists of course can interact, but 
there should be a list that exists for those that do not necessarily 
subscr*be to Stalinism, Maoism, etc...

There is an overwhelming tension between Marxian theory and practice 
and revolutionary activity.  There is little room for argeement; and 
the virtual communities are too fragile to be expected to survive.  
The number of people that have unsubbed from marxism is evidence of 
this; along with the creation of (Jerry's) the closed list for 
marxism.

There is something important about these factions -- theory/practice 
and revolutionaries -- being able to communicate.  But too often 
disagreements result in abandonment; hence absolutely no interaction. 
It would be best to have two lists, attempting to keep these factions 
seperate, but able to communicate --- and no expulsions (at least on 
the content that i have witnessed; which is not so different from 
exchanges i have witnessed in the past).

We must understand that there exist Marxists that believe that theory 
is complete and only the revolution remains to be accomplished.  What 
is wrong with them attempting to convince others on this conviction?  
Hans Ehrbar is willing to accept them on the basis that they are on 
the list to learn something, i want to accept them on the basis that 
they may be able to teach something.

The problem is (imho) they are rather naive, verbally abusive, and 
quite damaging to theoretical discussions that might otherwise emerge 
on the list.  My position is that marxism begins with thought; 
being able to *act* is a function of being able to think.  Moreover, 
thinking did not and should not stop with Marx, Engels and 
Bolsheviks -- contray to the PCP stance.

However, in (imho) PCP is not the problem.  The crisis on the marxist 
list pre-dates the emergence of PCP.  PCP has brought the problem to 
a head.  Moreover, it is a problem that seems quite specific to 
marxism, and it is a problem that begs a second list.

my belief is that a second list will help relieve the tension 
that exists within Marxism as movement.  We need not demonstrate our 
"muscle" as list-owners any different on the marxism-lists as we do 
on any other list.  

In that "Spoons" is the host, it is the body that exists that should, 
at least help, decide when a member should be expelled; which should 
(imo) nearly never have to happen.  If it comes to that the more 
opinions and "objective" opinions we can possible get.  

hans  





Lisa's draft info sheet for marxism2 has already been revised.

Malgosia is the one who made the counterproposal of using expulsions
on the old list instead.

However, marxism2 has now been created.  It still remains to finalize
and modify any time the info sheet.

But, HansD, it is not clear to me why you think that you and I and
Jerry would all have been candidates for expulsion under my first
draft marxism2 infosheet!

And why don't you want such "power" over bhaskarlist?  If there were
destructive elements and many calls for expulsion and such turmoil
within that list, I'm not sure I should be called upon as a member of
Spoon to be called in to decide something like that.  I'd be happy
for you to talk to Spoon, get some feedback, an outside observer,
etc, but surely you have a better idea of how destructive somebody is
to discussion on your list than I would have.

Also, I would have expectations of how you would use such "power", I
would expect you to be willing to discuss that and other methods of
list-management, etc.  I would not expect Spoon to be left uninformed
and unquestioning about anything and everything that you might do. 
Neither would I expect that we should have to micro-manage you.

Lisa

>>> Hans Despain <DESPAIN-AT-econ.sbs.utah.edu>  3/29/96, 03:45pm >>>
i am a bit confussed about the direction being taken.  Is there 
really a proposal for *no* new l*st, and including explusion of 
current members.  If so, i want to strongly object.
[snip]
my problem is that there has been many worthy canidates for 
explusion -- without changing the expressed critria expressed in 
Lisa's info sheet -- including Ralph Dumain, Louis P., Jerry L., 
Lisa R. and Hans D.  

The power to revoke membership should **only** rest within Spoons 
itself, not with the moderator.  The moderator should be responsible 
for reporting the mood of the list and particular problems.  i do not
 want this *power* as the list-owner and moderator of the bhaskar-
list, and it should not be given to any other moderator.

Moreover, it is the list-members themselves that should ulitimately 
decide such actions.  

hans d.




   

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