Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:16:05 +0100
From: Reg Lilly <rlilly-AT-skidmore.edu>
Subject: Re: Long, Long, Long, Post




"Nathaniel I. Cordova" wrote:
> 

	I read the through *my* response, and I sound a bit cracky -- I'm taking prednisone, but it must not be helping the
inflamation, heh, heh. 

> Dear All:
> 

> 
>     My answer is that I still believe in the usefulness of lists but no
> reason not to search other possibilities that work best for members and for
> the goals one is trying to accomplish. Another way I've been thinking about
> it is: As a user/member if I had to choose a limited number of lists/forums
> which ones would I choose to stay with, why? what would they need to
> provide, have, do, for me to keep those ones over any others? what am I
> looking for from these services? A different perspective than that from
> administrators but certainly worth thinking about also.


	I think these are good questions.  What do you think are the important reasons for staying on a list?  I've found that
the topic, per se, isn't really so key.  'Subjectivity' is a great topic; I think that some of us have some skepticism
about the 'built it and they will come' thesis.



> 
> > Without meaning to be too tricky about all this, but (and to push the point a
> > bit further), if 'the subject' is a
> > theoretical construct, and if (the pivotal 'minor' premise) the way that
> > 'academic discourse' has been constituted is in
> > fact 'in league' with a certain proponderant model of subjectivity, then might
> > it not be particularly apropos to have a
> > list on subjectivity that might work to reformulate not only that theoretical
> > object called 'the subject' as from afar,
> > but actually in the way that 'the subject' gets adressed, ie., beginning with
> > the 'site' at which the subject gets
> > addressed?
> 
>     I think it very apropos for a list/forum/BB on issues of subjectivity to
> deal with exactly those kinds of issues. We could have a list to do just
> that, or we could have a list that treats the issue of subjectivity broadly
> enough to encompass challenges to whatever complicity allows it to be in the
> first place, tackling directly those issues you mention. *My preference is
> for the latter.* [A bulletin board system would allow for a forum or more
> dedicated to those concerns, if those issues are seen as truly and vastly in
> opposition to a possible "business as usual" approach of academic treatment
> of subjectivity].
> 
> > Actually, I'm rather sympathetic toward those whom some might condemn as
> > pursuing an 'academicism' that is blind to
> > inducements to action, for I think there may be 'micro-events' in apparently
> > trivial academic (or any) exchange that are
> > generative of real transformation (transformation needn't be, perhaps best not
> > be, conceived on the model of sudden
> > revolution).
> 
>     I don't disagree, and to the extent that I may have sounded as if I did,
> I apologize. I don't like either the easy distinctions, attacks and
> denigration on theory, academic pursuits, etc. (ivory tower, and so on). And
> Yes, as a matter of spiritual practice I recognize the potential of
> everything to engender transformation.
> 
> > However (and I must say your remark about cinnabon, etc., seems
> > rather dismissive, if not flippant with
> > regard to the issues here),
> 
>     I apologize if I sounded dismissive or flippant. Let me be straight. We
> all are members of lists. We've all experienced the moment in which we see
> posts that are unrelated and just plain out of the focus, thematic area of
> the list. Unless we want a list to discuss the interconnectedness of
> everything, we do need to set boundaries. My example was no good, I saw that
> after I sent it and re-read it. This is what I meant to say:  I believe that
> exchanges on micro-practices that do not relate those practices/experiences
> to larger understandings, that do not stand in dialectical relationship to
> theory (whether pre-existent, or newly formulated) don't help as much for
> the efficacy or usefulness of the list. I don't say that members should not
> post such exchanges as "Yesterday I felt compelled to buy Palmolive liquid
> dishwashing detergent, the jingle in the commercial has been on my head all
> day long, and I felt as if I really needed this product if I want to keep a
> house well." Yes, all well and good, but what is the significance of those
> assertions in relation to the list/forum thematic? So my point was that I'd
> like to see a list that discusses substantively issues of subjectivity. That
> it creates connections and consequences of those practices, and theories,
> and accounts articulated.
> 
> > I think its a bit of a cop-out, especially when
> > the question is raised, to balk at at least
> > productively airing the question -- What, beyond the perpetuation of the
> > medium/instrument does 'the list' hope to
> > effect.
> 
>     I don't see my response as a cop out. I perhaps was answering another
> question, but not as a cop out. The question you ask as I see it then, is
> the following: what purpose/usefulness "beyond the perpetuation of the
> medium/instrument" (lists, the Collective) does the subject list hope to
> accomplish?  Well, since I am the one making claims about the establishment
> of the list perhaps this question falls squarely on my shoulders. Although I
> think it encourages a response from all concerned. My response then:
> 
>     I think the list or forum will serve to expand, and create, knowledge
> about issues of subjectivity. It might engender academic scholarship, as
> perhaps people get ideas, generate or firm up accounts and approaches, it
> might very well serve as a learning opportunity for students, and others not
> as familiar with topics under discussion, it might generate the same kind of
> challenges, discussion about predominant views on the subject you mention
> above... So, it might facilitate the exchange of scholarship about the
> issues under discussion. Not an unworthy goal in and of itself.  It might
> also occasion a rapproachment with others from different fields or
> disciplines, it might very well be the major contributing factor to new
> theories, and practices, and who knows what else about subjectivity, the
> constitution of subjects, the investment of subjects in identifying with
> certain positions, and so forth. The list discussions might however, move
> people to discuss issues of power exercised by subjects, about and/or
> critiques of practices (micro or not), about social movements... as Malgosia
> mentioned in a previous post, about changing subjectivities.
> 
>     We could all go on, but let's not preclude the outcome of what the list
> might prove to be. There is lots of potential, but we cannot establish that
> the list will definitely effect certain change. It might or it might not,
> and it might very well be that it does and we don't realize it or see it, or
> that it takes longer for whatever changes it might promote to be "seen." At
> best a well formulated list/forum can be a contributing factor to change,
> and I agree that we need to start such a forum with a clear vision and goal
> of what we'd like for it to be and how we'd like for it to serve those who
> join in its tribulations.
> 
>     If that is the purpose of the question then let's go by all means
> straight to that, but evaluating the viability of the list on what the list
> might hope to effect might clash a bit with previous thoughts about the
> "changing subjectivity" thoughts earlier articulated.  It also appears to
> evaluate the list on the basis of potential effect even when we've mentioned
> that how useful or practical the list might be is not necessarily or wholly
> a function of its admin. Please understand, I am not against airing the
> question, but the nature of the questions we ask does need reflection. It
> might be that as I asked Malgosia, the Collective has a vision, stance, or
> goals in mind regarding effecting change they'd like to promote, and that
> further action on the part of the Collective on lists or anything else
> requires filtering through such a vision. If so, I'd like to hear it.
> 
>     The same applies to the questions about what and whose knowledge is
> generated, propounded, and shared. etc. I think those questions can and must
> be addressed directly in the list/forum. We must be sure to ask them and
> engage them, and encourage discussion about those issues. They are after all
> integral to the issue of subjectivity.
> 
>     I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that I do not want to
> answer any questions or challenges face on. Perhaps I have misinterpreted
> what has been meant by "effecting" in this instance. Well, thanks again Reg
> and all,
> 
> in lovingkindness,
> 
> N. Cordova
> cordova-AT-wam.umd.edu