Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:38:53 +0000
Subject: Re: the state and violence




Hugh

Interestingly different questions - the evryday one that concerns me 
most - is that relating to the Palestinians and the forthcoming, it 
seems inevitable since the USA is supporting the Israeli state terroists 
(the Nazis would have been proud of their facistic style racism), 
endo-colonialist murder of  Arafat...  As I type new air bombing of west 
bank Palestinians aimed at terrorising them, how long before they start 
talking about 'sub-humans'... sorry I'm feeling slightly depressed... at 
the endless cycle of facist agression.

On a less depressed note it is fascinating how Israel has inherited so 
many fascistic tendencies... perhaps it is simply the return of the 
repressed... It would be fascinating to understand why 'they', that is 
the israel state has adopted such familar endo-colonial tactics against 
the Palestinians.

In 1957 Lyotard discussed how Bourguiba wanted to hand leadership of 
 Algeria back to an Algerian Bourgeoisie - to read the words where he 
discusses the 'little runt of a bourgeosie' as an outdated product of a 
neo-colonialist era is almost enough to generate a post-modern nostalgia 
for the era. The spectacularly appropriate writings of Lyotard still 
stand as an interesting analytical starting point from which to 
understand the post-modern state terrorism that is allowed, even 
encouraged to be inflicted on thse without a home nation-state.  In 
these post-modern days it seems inevitable that the only anti-colonial 
force that can be 'allowed' to remain is the post-modern evangelical 
groups...

regards as ever
steve

>
>Today, on TV, Secy. Powell described, how he asked Arafat to STOP the
>violence, but left Israel's decision up to Sharon, its duly elected leader.
>
>A fair reckoning of comparative violence of the two parties should be based
>on cumulative deaths and injuries, cumulative value of properties destroyed
>by Palestinians and by Israelis since the attempt at peaceful settlement was
>abandoned.
>
>Is bulldozing houses an act of terroristic violence?  Do the perpetrators
>wear soldier's uniforms?
>
>4) Other ironies:  Well-meaning nations can inadvertently harbor terrorists,
>as USA, Germany, Spain.  The cold-war superpowers produced more bio-chemical
>weapons than other countries, and continued production despite a treaty to
>stop.  And now, studies of such weapons must be expanded and intensified to
>get better knowledge of  the best means of defense against probable
>terrorist attacks.
>
>regards,
>Hugh
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: steve.devos <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.com>
>To: <lyotard-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:47 AM
>Subject: the state and violence
>
>
>>All
>>
>>When I was very young we essentially believed that its was time for the
>>state to be held accountable for the violence it committed and
>>contained. At some point we accepted that the issue was not simply the
>>state, but the socio-economic system as a whole, but not withstanding
>>this it was not possible or sensible to retreat from the former position.
>>
>>Even allowing for the idea that the state was being superceded, in some
>>circumstances by transnational and multinational corporations, an idea
>>which attempts to ignore the reality of the socio-economic system, in
>>which the state is but one extremely important and inevitable pole. For
>>example in our capital/techno-scientific society the state in either its
>>nation-state or the empire form is essential.
>>
>>Given our states behaviours over the past 50 years how should we respond?
>>
>>regards
>>
>>sdv
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

HTML VERSION:

Today, on TV, Secy. Powell described, how he asked Arafat to STOP the
violence, but left Israel's decision up to Sharon, its duly elected leader.

A fair reckoning of comparative violence of the two parties should be based
on cumulative deaths and injuries, cumulative value of properties destroyed
by Palestinians and by Israelis since the attempt at peaceful settlement was
abandoned.

Is bulldozing houses an act of terroristic violence?  Do the perpetrators
wear soldier's uniforms?

4) Other ironies:  Well-meaning nations can inadvertently harbor terrorists,
as USA, Germany, Spain.  The cold-war superpowers produced more bio-chemical
weapons than other countries, and continued production despite a treaty to
stop.  And now, studies of such weapons must be expanded and intensified to
get better knowledge of  the best means of defense against probable
terrorist attacks.

regards,
Hugh

~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~`


----- Original Message -----
From: steve.devos <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.com>
To: <lyotard-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:47 AM
Subject: the state and violence

All

When I was very young we essentially believed that its was time for the
state to be held accountable for the violence it committed and
contained. At some point we accepted that the issue was not simply the
state, but the socio-economic system as a whole, but not withstanding
this it was not possible or sensible to retreat from the former position.

Even allowing for the idea that the state was being superceded, in some
circumstances by transnational and multinational corporations, an idea
which attempts to ignore the reality of the socio-economic system, in
which the state is but one extremely important and inevitable pole. For
example in our capital/techno-scientific society the state in either its
nation-state or the empire form is essential.

Given our states behaviours over the past 50 years how should we respond?

regards

sdv