Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:36:04 +1000 From: hbone <hbone-AT-optonline.net> Subject: Re: tales of cloning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_DVX/4n9ITua46sCMZDbL7A) Steve/All, Your proposal sounds like a reasonable objective, a variant of the Hippocratic approach. Some cases might be easy to decide. For most cases, given the present state of the cloning art, there will not be sufficient eviddence to use the criterion regards, Hugh All The below is from the BBC website relating to the human cloning debate. Whilst the reporting is tragic in its stupidity, what seems even worse is the triviality of the debate. My favorite quote is Ian Gibson's "...new moral and ethical morasses for us and we need to debate it seriously over a period". The question that must occur is why is this a new moral and ethical issue ? Why is this any different from producing any other child in our societies ? Why is this different from human scientists experimenting on cloning apes or sheep? It has been said that the cults behavior shows a regrettable lack of care for human life, but there is no evidence of this - and note the use of the humanist term 'human life' suggesting that in some sense the cults reproduction of a single human life is in some sense related to a lack of care for a species. My own view is that the only ethical and moral test that scientists cloning a living being must pass is - it must not produce beings who would have been better off not existing at all. Given that none of the following statements are raising this as a test case then they are all morally and ethically irrelevant. (The same ethical test can be applied to 'designer babies' of course....) Thoughts please... regards steve http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2611109.stm Saturday, 28 December, 2002, 14:28 GMT Demands grow for human clone ban Advocates argue cloning can help infertile couples There are growing demands for a ban on human cloning after claims that a girl born on Thursday is an exact genetic replica of her mother. Clonaid scientist Brigitte Boisselier said four more clones will be born soon French President Chirac has called on all countries to rally behind a Franco-German proposal for a global ban on human cloning which has been submitted to the United Nations. US President George W Bush says the process is "deeply troubling". Scientists remain sceptical of the success claimed by the Clonaid company which is linked to a sect that believes aliens created humans by cloning 25,000 years ago. But legislators in Britain and elsewhere say there has to be discussion and introduction of rules for the practice of scientific methods which could produce a cloned baby, even if Clonaid's claims are untrue. The practice is contrary to human dignity and criminal French President Jacques Chirac Clonaid scientist Brigitte Boisselier said a baby girl - nicknamed Eve - was born in the US as an exact genetic replica of her mother. She said four other women were due to give birth to cloned babies in the coming weeks - one in Europe, another in North America and two in Asia. Strong condemnation President Chirac made his appeal for a global ban on human cloning in a statement issued by his office late on Friday. "Whatever the truth behind the announcement, the president of the republic takes this opportunity to reiterate his strong condemnation of all research into human reproductive cloning and to solemnly reaffirm that for France the practice is contrary to human dignity and criminal," the statement said. Earlier, a spokesman for Mr Bush spoke of his unease. These technologies... are raising new moral and ethical morasses for us Dr Ian Gibson British legislator Scott McClellan said: "Despite the widespread scepticism among scientists and medical professionals about [the] announcement, it underscores the need for the new Congress to act." The US House of Representatives passed a bill to ban cloning last year, but it has not been approved by the Senate or become law. A defining moment in medical history? Click here for full story In Britain, human cloning is banned. But Dr Ian Gibson, the head of the parliamentary Science and Technology Select Committee, said there should be a review of fertility and cloning technologies. "These technologies, the questions, the use of the technologies, are raising new moral and ethical morasses for us and we need to debate it seriously over a period," he told the BBC. Secrecy defended Clonaid offered no evidence of its alleged cloning success at its announcement, but said independent scientists would be allowed to test the mother and her daughter. The results of those tests will be available within days and would need to show the parent and child are an exact genetic match for the clone claim to be verified. The British leader of the Raelian sect - with which Clonaid is linked - defended the secrecy before the birth. Glen Carter said: "I don't think the security of the mother carrying the child would have been guaranteed had people - independent or not independent - outside the Clonaid company been aware of the whereabouts and the circumstances of the birth." 'Ludicrous' claims Dr Harry Griffin, the head of the Roslin Institute which created Dolly the sheep as the world's first cloned animal, said all researchers had reported high numbers of miscarriages, deaths after birth and other problems with cloned animals. "It is not an inevitable consequence of being cloned but it is a common consequence," he said, adding he found the cloning of humans "objectionable". A leading British fertility expert, Lord Winston, said most scientists would regard Clonaid's claims as "ludicrous". He wrote in Britain's Mirror newspaper: "This strange cult is publicity seeking." But Mohamed Taranissi, of London's Assisted Reproduction and Gynaecology Centre, said a distinction should be drawn between the alleged breakthrough and the people behind it. "I believe that if this claim has been substantiated there is a lot of potential uses for it and good uses for it." --Boundary_(ID_DVX/4n9ITua46sCMZDbL7A)
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--Boundary_(ID_DVX/4n9ITua46sCMZDbL7A)--All
The below is from the BBC website relating to the human cloning debate. Whilst the reporting is tragic in its stupidity, what seems even worse is the triviality of the debate. My favorite quote is Ian Gibson's "...new moral and ethical morasses for us and we need to debate it seriously over a period". The question that must occur is why is this a new moral and ethical issue ? Why is this any different from producing any other child in our societies ? Why is this different from human scientists experimenting on cloning apes or sheep? It has been said that the cults behavior shows a regrettable lack of care for human life, but there is no evidence of this - and note the use of the humanist term 'human life' suggesting that in some sense the cults reproduction of a single human life is in some sense related to a lack of care for a species.
My own view is that the only ethical and moral test that scientists cloning a living being must pass is - it must not produce beings who would have been better off not existing at all. Given that none of the following statements are raising this as a test case then they are all morally and ethically irrelevant. (The same ethical test can be applied to 'designer babies' of course....)
Thoughts please...
regards
steve
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2611109.stm
Saturday, 28 December, 2002, 14:28 GMTDemands grow for human clone banThere are growing demands for a ban on human cloning after claims that a girl born on Thursday is an exact genetic replica of her mother.
French President Chirac has called on all countries to rally behind a Franco-German proposal for a global ban on human cloning which has been submitted to the United Nations.
US President George W Bush says the process is "deeply troubling".
Scientists remain sceptical of the success claimed by the Clonaid company which is linked to a sect that believes aliens created humans by cloning 25,000 years ago.
But legislators in Britain and elsewhere say there has to be discussion and introduction of rules for the practice of scientific methods which could produce a cloned baby, even if Clonaid's claims are untrue.
Clonaid scientist Brigitte Boisselier said a baby girl - nicknamed Eve - was born in the US as an exact genetic replica of her mother.
The practice is contrary to human dignity and criminal
French President Jacques ChiracShe said four other women were due to give birth to cloned babies in the coming weeks - one in Europe, another in North America and two in Asia.
Strong condemnation
President Chirac made his appeal for a global ban on human cloning in a statement issued by his office late on Friday.
"Whatever the truth behind the announcement, the president of the republic takes this opportunity to reiterate his strong condemnation of all research into human reproductive cloning and to solemnly reaffirm that for France the practice is contrary to human dignity and criminal," the statement said.
Earlier, a spokesman for Mr Bush spoke of his unease.
These technologies... are raising new moral and ethical morasses for us
Dr Ian Gibson
British legislatorScott McClellan said: "Despite the widespread scepticism among scientists and medical professionals about [the] announcement, it underscores the need for the new Congress to act."
The US House of Representatives passed a bill to ban cloning last year, but it has not been approved by the Senate or become law.
In Britain, human cloning is banned.
But Dr Ian Gibson, the head of the parliamentary Science and Technology Select Committee, said there should be a review of fertility and cloning technologies.
"These technologies, the questions, the use of the technologies, are raising new moral and ethical morasses for us and we need to debate it seriously over a period," he told the BBC.
Secrecy defended
Clonaid offered no evidence of its alleged cloning success at its announcement, but said independent scientists would be allowed to test the mother and her daughter.
The results of those tests will be available within days and would need to show the parent and child are an exact genetic match for the clone claim to be verified.
The British leader of the Raelian sect - with which Clonaid is linked - defended the secrecy before the birth.
Glen Carter said: "I don't think the security of the mother carrying the child would have been guaranteed had people - independent or not independent - outside the Clonaid company been aware of the whereabouts and the circumstances of the birth."
'Ludicrous' claims
Dr Harry Griffin, the head of the Roslin Institute which created Dolly the sheep as the world's first cloned animal, said all researchers had reported high numbers of miscarriages, deaths after birth and other problems with cloned animals.
"It is not an inevitable consequence of being cloned but it is a common consequence," he said, adding he found the cloning of humans "objectionable".
A leading British fertility expert, Lord Winston, said most scientists would regard Clonaid's claims as "ludicrous".
He wrote in Britain's Mirror newspaper: "This strange cult is publicity seeking."
But Mohamed Taranissi, of London's Assisted Reproduction and Gynaecology Centre, said a distinction should be drawn between the alleged breakthrough and the people behind it.
"I believe that if this claim has been substantiated there is a lot of potential uses for it and good uses for it."
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