File spoon-archives/lyotard.archive/lyotard_2003/lyotard.0302, message 69


Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:36:18 +0000
Subject: Re: GLOBAL PEACE DEMONSTRATIONS




All

The contextualisation issue is irrelevant - firstly because to do so it 
is necessary to agree what the boundary should be around the event. 
Historically when ? 1900, 1920, 1945/8, 1990, 1998? All reasonable dates 
to work with. And what is the geographical boundrary? Palestine, Israel, 
Egypt, Turkey....USA, UK. So what is the context is it global or just 
the continuation of the paranoid phantasies of  the US and UK govenments?

So let's repeat some numbers - and issues

    * 400,000 to 600,000 died in the last Gulf war extravanganza -
      though as Baudriallard said it was not a war but a spectacle
    * It is claimed that 6,000,000 people have died as a result of US
      colonial adventures since the end of 1945.
    * I have never seen any good figures that state how many people have
      been tortured by US exportation of the technology and the skills
      but it must be in the region of 500,000 to a Million.
    * Current US plans are for the creation of a military dictatorship
      in Iraq fter the war - no democracy, did anyone expect it?

So why am I repeating this litany of unpleasent numbers and facts ? - 
because you are mostly Americans and are repeating words and facts that 
originate from the spectacle as if there is some sense or event truth 
engaged in this colonial activity.  As if Iraq's neo-fascist regime is 
the point behind this exercise of resistence.

Current estimates are that there were 2M+ demonstrators in London and 
Glasgow, 3M in Rome, 1M in Spain and another 1-2 Million or so spread 
around Western Europe. 200,000 in Melbourne and 100,000 in NYC.

It was cold but heartwarming...

Regards
steve


Judy wrote:

>> Lois wrote:
>>
>>>  Hugh, I followed your link and came to the site in which
>>>  Tony Blair defends his aliiance with the US.
>>>  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2765705.stm
>>>
>>>  On that site Blair says:
>>>  "Anti-war demonstrators should remember the hundreds of
>>>  thousands of people whose deaths the Iraqi leader was
>>>  responsible for, Mr Blair said. "
>>>
>>>  "Hundreds of thousands?"  Anyone know of a site that gives
>>>  numbers?  The numbers I have heard, at least that I recall,
>>>  are much less.
>>
>>
>> Could easily be more than a hundred thousand.  An Iranian minister in 
>> a TV
>> interview a couple of nights ago said Saddam's weapons of mass 
>> destruction
>> killed 70,000 Iranans.
>> in that war.
>
>
>
> To contextualize, is there an estimate of the number of Iraqis killed 
> by Iranians?
>
>
>>
>> As I remember, tens of thousands of Kurds were killed during or 
>> immediately
>> after the end of the Gulf War.
>
>
>
> For context again, did these happen to be Kurds who were supporting 
> armed rebellion agaisnt the government?  Do we know what the source of 
> these numbers is?  Amnesty International?  Who did they hear it from?
>
>
>
>>   Don't know how many Kuwaitis or Americans.
>
>
>
> My impression has been, though I don't know, that far more Americans 
> were killed by Americans than by iraqis, both by "friendly fire" and 
> other accidents, and in ways that are related to the Gulf War 
> Syndrome, according to Captain Joyce Riley, a US military nurse who 
> worked with Gulf War soldiers and contracted Gulf War Syndrome 
> herself--I heard her being interviewed a couple of days ago on Radio 
> Pacifica.   How many Iraqis did the Americans kill in and since Desert 
> Storm?  I think it might be in that same 100,000 range estimate.
>
> How many Americans have been killed by Kuwaitis over the years?  One 
> of those mass murders of American military personnel in Beirut or 
> somewhere was by a Kuwaiti suicide bomber, I believe.
>
> I bring these questions up because I'm hyper-sensitized to 
> demonization of the Iraq government these days.  It feels like a 
> weapon, and that's how I tend to react to it.
>
>
>>
>> But if he only killed a few thousand of other Iraquis each year with 
>> guns
>> and torture, it must be a very large number after his decades in power.
>>
>> As to the demonstrations,  Le Journal, French news on TV, gave 
>> substantial
>> coverage of  the crowds in Rome, (est.3 million) Brussels, Berlin, 
>> Paris,
>> London, Moscow, London, Melbourne, less coverage to about 15 or 20 other
>> cities around the world.
>>
>> CNN reported huge crowds in Sydney, where it was 2:00 pm Sunday.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Hugh
>
>
>
> I heard there were about a million in Spain and about a million in 
> London.  Interesting that the biggest numbers were in countries where 
> the governments are supporting the Bush regime agenda.  What does that 
> mean?
> Judy
>
>
>


HTML VERSION:

All

The contextualisation issue is irrelevant - firstly because to do so it is necessary to agree what the boundary should be around the event. Historically when ? 1900, 1920, 1945/8, 1990, 1998? All reasonable dates to work with. And what is the geographical boundrary? Palestine, Israel, Egypt, Turkey....USA, UK. So what is the context is it global or just the continuation of the paranoid phantasies of  the US and UK govenments?

So let's repeat some numbers - and issues So why am I repeating this litany of unpleasent numbers and facts ? - because you are mostly Americans and are repeating words and facts that originate from the spectacle as if there is some sense or event truth engaged in this colonial activity.  As if Iraq's neo-fascist regime is the point behind this exercise of resistence.

Current estimates are that there were 2M+ demonstrators in London and Glasgow, 3M in Rome, 1M in Spain and another 1-2 Million or so spread around Western Europe. 200,000 in Melbourne and 100,000 in NYC.

It was cold but heartwarming...

Regards
steve


Judy wrote:
Lois wrote:
 Hugh, I followed your link and came to the site in which
 Tony Blair defends his aliiance with the US.
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2765705.stm

 On that site Blair says:
 "Anti-war demonstrators should remember the hundreds of
 thousands of people whose deaths the Iraqi leader was
 responsible for, Mr Blair said. "

 "Hundreds of thousands?"  Anyone know of a site that gives
 numbers?  The numbers I have heard, at least that I recall,
 are much less.

Could easily be more than a hundred thousand.  An Iranian minister in a TV
interview a couple of nights ago said Saddam's weapons of mass destruction
killed 70,000 Iranans.
in that war.


To contextualize, is there an estimate of the number of Iraqis killed by Iranians?



As I remember, tens of thousands of Kurds were killed during or immediately
after the end of the Gulf War.


For context again, did these happen to be Kurds who were supporting armed rebellion agaisnt the government?  Do we know what the source of these numbers is?  Amnesty International?  Who did they hear it from?



  Don't know how many Kuwaitis or Americans.


My impression has been, though I don't know, that far more Americans were killed by Americans than by iraqis, both by "friendly fire" and other accidents, and in ways that are related to the Gulf War Syndrome, according to Captain Joyce Riley, a US military nurse who worked with Gulf War soldiers and contracted Gulf War Syndrome herself--I heard her being interviewed a couple of days ago on Radio Pacifica.   How many Iraqis did the Americans kill in and since Desert Storm?  I think it might be in that same 100,000 range estimate.

How many Americans have been killed by Kuwaitis over the years?  One of those mass murders of American military personnel in Beirut or somewhere was by a Kuwaiti suicide bomber, I believe.

I bring these questions up because I'm hyper-sensitized to demonization of the Iraq government these days.  It feels like a weapon, and that's how I tend to react to it.



But if he only killed a few thousand of other Iraquis each year with guns
and torture, it must be a very large number after his decades in power.

As to the demonstrations,  Le Journal, French news on TV, gave substantial
coverage of  the crowds in Rome, (est.3 million) Brussels, Berlin, Paris,
London, Moscow, London, Melbourne, less coverage to about 15 or 20 other
cities around the world.

CNN reported huge crowds in Sydney, where it was 2:00 pm Sunday.

best regards,
Hugh


I heard there were about a million in Spain and about a million in London.  Interesting that the biggest numbers were in countries where the governments are supporting the Bush regime agenda.  What does that mean?
Judy





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