File spoon-archives/lyotard.archive/lyotard_2003/lyotard.0308, message 18


Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:52:54 +0100
From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
Subject: Re: powerlessness




Hugh

Actually Hugh I think of you as an American Liberal  and not a European 
Liberal.  For a European liberal has become a distinctly reactionary 
creature who believes that liberalism has the right to dominate, bomb 
and maim on  the basis of  an ideological position. I do not believe 
that an American Liberal would necessicarily think in the same terms - 
at least apart from liberals like Rorty...

regards
steve

hbone wrote:

>Steve/All,
>
>In the sense that each human being is constituted of  multiple "selves", I
>can understand 'pessimism of the intellect" and "optimism of the will",
>Hamlet's dilemna..
>
>Foucault wrote of the "history of ideas", and his historical description of
>power, in several books, could be called "beyond good and evil" in the sense
>that those with sufficient power can ignore good and evil.
>
>I don't know a Master/Slave model, and if there is an empire model in Hardt
>Negri, I missed it when I read that huge book.  But, as you say, I don't
>claim to be a European liberal.
>
>Last night I saw part of a documentary filmed, in China, that shows
>capitalism flourishing in a country , which does not seem to be an empire,
>but may, in a few years,  prove to be the most powerful competitor of  the
>U.S.
>
>regards,
>Hugh
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>  
>
>>All
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>I was interested in the interpretation that those writing on the list
>>represent themselves as "powerless". I choose to understand this in the
>>face of the discussions that we have had in relation to politics and
>>current macro-political events.  Politics here is being used in the
>>broad but hopefully precise sense  to refer to positioons taken up with
>>respect to power relations that exist between people and that are
>>embedded in the major structures of society. [This would normally be
>>'thought' in my everyday social and political activity (case) as also
>>encompassing the relations between human persons and the non-human
>>(persons and non-persons) ]  So the question might be rethought of in
>>terms of the Brecht/Gramsci statement " ...Pessmisim of the intellect,
>>optimisim of the will..." So does this phrase represent how you feel or
>>is it the case that Shawver was right and that you feel powerless and
>>suffer from pessimism of the will ?
>>
>>Recently power has been referred to in ways that suggest that the
>>Foucauldian understanding of power as being beyond 'good and evil' is
>>the accepted currency of the understanding of power. I do not think, any
>>longer, that this is a necesscary improvement on the Master/Slave
>>dialectical model, if it is not also in alignment with the biopolitical
>>model and understanding that is part of the empire model.
>>
>>[I am especially interested in Hugh and Judy responding to this as I
>>think of you as more 'liberal' than I am - but in the european sense of
>>liberal not the american (which is why sometimes Hugh especially
>>sometimes drives me nuts!!!) ]
>>
>>regards
>>steve
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>


HTML VERSION:

Hugh

Actually Hugh I think of you as an American Liberal  and not a European Liberal.  For a European liberal has become a distinctly reactionary creature who believes that liberalism has the right to dominate, bomb and maim on  the basis of  an ideological position. I do not believe that an American Liberal would necessicarily think in the same terms - at least apart from liberals like Rorty...

regards
steve

hbone wrote:
Steve/All,

In the sense that each human being is constituted of  multiple "selves", I
can understand 'pessimism of the intellect" and "optimism of the will",
Hamlet's dilemna..

Foucault wrote of the "history of ideas", and his historical description of
power, in several books, could be called "beyond good and evil" in the sense
that those with sufficient power can ignore good and evil.

I don't know a Master/Slave model, and if there is an empire model in Hardt
Negri, I missed it when I read that huge book.  But, as you say, I don't
claim to be a European liberal.

Last night I saw part of a documentary filmed, in China, that shows
capitalism flourishing in a country , which does not seem to be an empire,
but may, in a few years,  prove to be the most powerful competitor of  the
U.S.

regards,
Hugh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  
All
    

  
I was interested in the interpretation that those writing on the list
represent themselves as "powerless". I choose to understand this in the
face of the discussions that we have had in relation to politics and
current macro-political events.  Politics here is being used in the
broad but hopefully precise sense  to refer to positioons taken up with
respect to power relations that exist between people and that are
embedded in the major structures of society. [This would normally be
'thought' in my everyday social and political activity (case) as also
encompassing the relations between human persons and the non-human
(persons and non-persons) ]  So the question might be rethought of in
terms of the Brecht/Gramsci statement " ...Pessmisim of the intellect,
optimisim of the will..." So does this phrase represent how you feel or
is it the case that Shawver was right and that you feel powerless and
suffer from pessimism of the will ?

Recently power has been referred to in ways that suggest that the
Foucauldian understanding of power as being beyond 'good and evil' is
the accepted currency of the understanding of power. I do not think, any
longer, that this is a necesscary improvement on the Master/Slave
dialectical model, if it is not also in alignment with the biopolitical
model and understanding that is part of the empire model.

[I am especially interested in Hugh and Judy responding to this as I
think of you as more 'liberal' than I am - but in the european sense of
liberal not the american (which is why sometimes Hugh especially
sometimes drives me nuts!!!) ]

regards
steve


    


  


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