Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:02:33 +0100 From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk> Subject: Re: Endless War All I'm interested in the issues raised in the below because it reminds me of similar statements that were made around the odd killings of European colonists during the 19th C. I do not have for exact numbers of the numbers of europeans murdered by Indian/Asian terroists in the 19th C. However it is known that in Asia during the last 25 years of the 19th C - 50 Million people died as a result of the British States economic and political policies. Now given that the USA is the equivilant imperial power post the second world war with an accountability for estimated 6 million deaths (Pilger) pre-the-afghan adventure, how should a person respond. The clarification that would be interesting would be how should an American Citizin respond to the terroist killing of an American Colonial ? Likewise how should a European or Non-European respond to the same terrorist killing? The killing does not mean the same thing from the three perspectives and to propose a single moral and political perspective doesn't work. This differend is worth exploring, engaging in to understand whether it is a real differend or simply a difference caused by a moral cry of outrage. Brief answers would be interesting. (Especially in relation to the anti-colonial writin gs of Lyotard) The UK has troops in Iraq as a direct consequence we have an especial responsibility to make the engagement as politically damaging as possible to the Blair/new labor Gov. to prevent his engaging and lending the next US colonial adventure moral legitimacy. regards steve Paul Antschel wrote: >On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Judy wrote: > > > >>>And I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about Iraq. We should, of course. But >>>my question to Europeans is why so little outrage over the slaughters >>>taking place in Chechnya, Algeria or the Congo? >>> >>> >>Paul, are you talking to europeans in general, or particular >>europeans? aren't you aware there are a number of europeans who are >>critical of these atrocities you cite? it's not clear to me if you >>are addressing people here personally or more like making a speech to >>people in general. or both? >> >> > >Particular Europeans. Like the one's I met when I was living in Geneva and >France. The ones I met who celebrated Sept. 11th and told me things >like (Ils l'ont bien merite) "they had it coming" or compared it >to Rwanda and said 9/11 was a non-event compared to Rwanda (although >my impression was that they couldn't have cared less about the genocide >in Rwanda), this was just a way of using statistics to relativize tragedy >and thereby render it meaningless. Because my impression is that at least >fifty percent of the population in Europe had this reaction and this was >confirmed by polls taken in Geneva in the local papers such as "Le Temps", >"La Tribune de Geneve" and "Le Matin", as well as similar polls taken >in France. > >This was not reported, however, by the US media, to my knowledge. > >Everyone I met in Geneva was outraged by the American war in Iraq. > >Yet I never heard anyone there mention they were the least concerned >about events in Chechnya where somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 >people have been slaughered by the Russian army since 1994 (no one >knows a more exact figure because no one seems to care apart from >a few exceptions like Andre Glucksmann and the peace activists >associated with the Russian human rights group Memorial (also >extensively documented by both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty >International). > >Also there were peace signs everywhere in Geneva as the US >stepped up plans for its invasion of Iraq, yet no one seemed >even to be aware of other war zones like Congo, Algeria, >Chinese repression of Tibet, Chinese repression of Muslims >in the Xinjiang province, Turkish repression of Kurds, etc. > >There's a certain amount of hypocrisy involved in this, >a certain smugness one finds among Europeans in general, >that's all I was pointing out. > >So I was addressing my remarks in general to those Europeans, not >that any of them are members of this list, but anyone living in >Europe knows such people exist, and quite possibly they constitute >a majority, this is my impression in any case, as well as the >impression of my ex-wife, who routinely hears Swiss colleagues >at work make statements such as "they" (whoever they are) should >start killing American children, etc. > >And the Swiss were always quite thrilled whenever a suicide bomber >blows up Israelis. > >Those are the people I was addressing my general remarks to, >no one in particular, and although there might be members of >this list who secretly agree with these sentiments of hatred, >I doubt they would state this openly here. > >Having said all of the above, I should point out yet again >that I'm totally opposed to the US occupation of Iraq >(I opposed it from the beginning) as well as Israel's continuing >persecution of Palestinians and the US complicity in this violence against >Palestinians. > >p_antschel > > > >
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On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Judy wrote:And I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about Iraq. We should, of course. But my question to Europeans is why so little outrage over the slaughters taking place in Chechnya, Algeria or the Congo?Paul, are you talking to europeans in general, or particular europeans? aren't you aware there are a number of europeans who are critical of these atrocities you cite? it's not clear to me if you are addressing people here personally or more like making a speech to people in general. or both?Particular Europeans. Like the one's I met when I was living in Geneva and France. The ones I met who celebrated Sept. 11th and told me things like (Ils l'ont bien merite) "they had it coming" or compared it to Rwanda and said 9/11 was a non-event compared to Rwanda (although my impression was that they couldn't have cared less about the genocide in Rwanda), this was just a way of using statistics to relativize tragedy and thereby render it meaningless. Because my impression is that at least fifty percent of the population in Europe had this reaction and this was confirmed by polls taken in Geneva in the local papers such as "Le Temps", "La Tribune de Geneve" and "Le Matin", as well as similar polls taken in France. This was not reported, however, by the US media, to my knowledge. Everyone I met in Geneva was outraged by the American war in Iraq. Yet I never heard anyone there mention they were the least concerned about events in Chechnya where somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 people have been slaughered by the Russian army since 1994 (no one knows a more exact figure because no one seems to care apart from a few exceptions like Andre Glucksmann and the peace activists associated with the Russian human rights group Memorial (also extensively documented by both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International). Also there were peace signs everywhere in Geneva as the US stepped up plans for its invasion of Iraq, yet no one seemed even to be aware of other war zones like Congo, Algeria, Chinese repression of Tibet, Chinese repression of Muslims in the Xinjiang province, Turkish repression of Kurds, etc. There's a certain amount of hypocrisy involved in this, a certain smugness one finds among Europeans in general, that's all I was pointing out. So I was addressing my remarks in general to those Europeans, not that any of them are members of this list, but anyone living in Europe knows such people exist, and quite possibly they constitute a majority, this is my impression in any case, as well as the impression of my ex-wife, who routinely hears Swiss colleagues at work make statements such as "they" (whoever they are) should start killing American children, etc. And the Swiss were always quite thrilled whenever a suicide bomber blows up Israelis. Those are the people I was addressing my general remarks to, no one in particular, and although there might be members of this list who secretly agree with these sentiments of hatred, I doubt they would state this openly here. Having said all of the above, I should point out yet again that I'm totally opposed to the US occupation of Iraq (I opposed it from the beginning) as well as Israel's continuing persecution of Palestinians and the US complicity in this violence against Palestinians. p_antschel