File spoon-archives/lyotard.archive/lyotard_2003/lyotard.0310, message 46


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:02:33 +0100
From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Endless War




All

I'm interested in the issues raised in the below because it reminds me 
of similar statements that were made around the odd killings of European 
colonists during the 19th C. I do not have for exact numbers of the 
numbers of europeans murdered by Indian/Asian terroists in the 19th C. 
However it is known that in Asia during the last 25 years of the 19th C 
- 50 Million people died as a result of the British States economic and 
political policies.

Now given that the USA is the equivilant imperial power post the second 
world war with an accountability for estimated 6 million deaths  
(Pilger) pre-the-afghan adventure, how should a person respond. The 
clarification that would be interesting would be how should an American 
Citizin respond to the terroist killing of an American Colonial ? 
Likewise how should a European or Non-European respond to the same 
terrorist killing? The killing does not mean the same thing from the 
three perspectives and to propose a single moral and political 
perspective doesn't work. This differend is worth exploring, engaging in 
to understand whether it is a real differend or simply a difference 
caused by a moral cry of outrage.

Brief answers would be interesting. (Especially  in relation to the 
anti-colonial writin gs of Lyotard)

The UK has troops in Iraq as a direct consequence we have an especial 
responsibility to make the engagement as politically damaging as 
possible to the Blair/new labor Gov. to prevent his engaging and lending 
the next US colonial adventure moral legitimacy.

regards
steve

Paul Antschel wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Judy wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>And I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about Iraq. We should, of course. But
>>>my question to Europeans is why so little outrage over the slaughters
>>>taking place in Chechnya, Algeria or the Congo?
>>>      
>>>
>>Paul, are you talking to europeans in general, or particular
>>europeans?  aren't you aware there are a number of europeans who are
>>critical of these atrocities you cite?  it's not clear to me if you
>>are addressing people here personally or more like making a speech to
>>people in general.  or both?
>>    
>>
>
>Particular Europeans. Like the one's I met when I was living in Geneva and
>France. The ones I met who celebrated Sept. 11th and told me things
>like (Ils l'ont bien merite) "they had it coming" or compared it
>to Rwanda and said 9/11 was a non-event compared to Rwanda (although
>my impression was that they couldn't have cared less about the genocide
>in Rwanda), this was just a way of using statistics to relativize tragedy
>and thereby render it meaningless. Because my impression is that at least
>fifty percent of the population in Europe had this reaction and this was
>confirmed by polls taken in Geneva in the local papers such as "Le Temps",
>"La Tribune de Geneve" and "Le Matin", as well as similar polls taken
>in France.
>
>This was not reported, however, by the US media, to my knowledge.
>
>Everyone I met in Geneva was outraged by the American war in Iraq.
>
>Yet I never heard anyone there mention they were the least concerned
>about events in Chechnya where somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000
>people have been slaughered by the Russian army since 1994 (no one
>knows a more exact figure because no one seems to care apart from
>a few exceptions like Andre Glucksmann and the peace activists
>associated with the Russian human rights group Memorial (also
>extensively documented by both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty
>International).
>
>Also there were peace signs everywhere in Geneva as the US
>stepped up plans for its invasion of Iraq, yet no one seemed
>even to be aware of other war zones like Congo, Algeria,
>Chinese repression of Tibet, Chinese repression of Muslims
>in the Xinjiang province, Turkish repression of Kurds, etc.
>
>There's a certain amount of hypocrisy involved in this,
>a certain smugness one finds among Europeans in general,
>that's all I was pointing out.
>
>So I was addressing my remarks in general to those Europeans, not
>that any of them are members of this list, but anyone living in
>Europe knows such people exist, and quite possibly they constitute
>a majority, this is my impression in any case, as well as the
>impression of my ex-wife, who routinely hears Swiss colleagues
>at work make statements such as "they" (whoever they are) should
>start killing American children, etc.
>
>And the Swiss were always quite thrilled whenever a suicide bomber
>blows up Israelis.
>
>Those are the people I was addressing my general remarks to,
>no one in particular, and although there might be members of
>this list who secretly agree with these sentiments of hatred,
>I doubt they would state this openly here.
>
>Having said all of the above, I should point out yet again
>that I'm totally opposed to the US occupation of Iraq
>(I opposed it from the beginning) as well as Israel's continuing
>persecution of Palestinians and the US complicity in this violence against
>Palestinians.
>
>p_antschel
>
>
>  
>


HTML VERSION:

All

I'm interested in the issues raised in the below because it reminds me of similar statements that were made around the odd killings of European colonists during the 19th C. I do not have for exact numbers of the numbers of europeans murdered by Indian/Asian terroists in the 19th C. However it is known that in Asia during the last 25 years of the 19th C - 50 Million people died as a result of the British States economic and political policies.

Now given that the USA is the equivilant imperial power post the second world war with an accountability for estimated 6 million deaths  (Pilger) pre-the-afghan adventure, how should a person respond. The clarification that would be interesting would be how should an American Citizin respond to the terroist killing of an American Colonial ? Likewise how should a European or Non-European respond to the same terrorist killing? The killing does not mean the same thing from the three perspectives and to propose a single moral and political perspective doesn't work. This differend is worth exploring, engaging in to understand whether it is a real differend or simply a difference caused by a moral cry of outrage.

Brief answers would be interesting. (Especially  in relation to the anti-colonial writin gs of Lyotard)

The UK has troops in Iraq as a direct consequence we have an especial responsibility to make the engagement as politically damaging as possible to the Blair/new labor Gov. to prevent his engaging and lending the next US colonial adventure moral legitimacy.

regards
steve

Paul Antschel wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Judy wrote:

  
And I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about Iraq. We should, of course. But
my question to Europeans is why so little outrage over the slaughters
taking place in Chechnya, Algeria or the Congo?
      
Paul, are you talking to europeans in general, or particular
europeans?  aren't you aware there are a number of europeans who are
critical of these atrocities you cite?  it's not clear to me if you
are addressing people here personally or more like making a speech to
people in general.  or both?
    

Particular Europeans. Like the one's I met when I was living in Geneva and
France. The ones I met who celebrated Sept. 11th and told me things
like (Ils l'ont bien merite) "they had it coming" or compared it
to Rwanda and said 9/11 was a non-event compared to Rwanda (although
my impression was that they couldn't have cared less about the genocide
in Rwanda), this was just a way of using statistics to relativize tragedy
and thereby render it meaningless. Because my impression is that at least
fifty percent of the population in Europe had this reaction and this was
confirmed by polls taken in Geneva in the local papers such as "Le Temps",
"La Tribune de Geneve" and "Le Matin", as well as similar polls taken
in France.

This was not reported, however, by the US media, to my knowledge.

Everyone I met in Geneva was outraged by the American war in Iraq.

Yet I never heard anyone there mention they were the least concerned
about events in Chechnya where somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000
people have been slaughered by the Russian army since 1994 (no one
knows a more exact figure because no one seems to care apart from
a few exceptions like Andre Glucksmann and the peace activists
associated with the Russian human rights group Memorial (also
extensively documented by both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty
International).

Also there were peace signs everywhere in Geneva as the US
stepped up plans for its invasion of Iraq, yet no one seemed
even to be aware of other war zones like Congo, Algeria,
Chinese repression of Tibet, Chinese repression of Muslims
in the Xinjiang province, Turkish repression of Kurds, etc.

There's a certain amount of hypocrisy involved in this,
a certain smugness one finds among Europeans in general,
that's all I was pointing out.

So I was addressing my remarks in general to those Europeans, not
that any of them are members of this list, but anyone living in
Europe knows such people exist, and quite possibly they constitute
a majority, this is my impression in any case, as well as the
impression of my ex-wife, who routinely hears Swiss colleagues
at work make statements such as "they" (whoever they are) should
start killing American children, etc.

And the Swiss were always quite thrilled whenever a suicide bomber
blows up Israelis.

Those are the people I was addressing my general remarks to,
no one in particular, and although there might be members of
this list who secretly agree with these sentiments of hatred,
I doubt they would state this openly here.

Having said all of the above, I should point out yet again
that I'm totally opposed to the US occupation of Iraq
(I opposed it from the beginning) as well as Israel's continuing
persecution of Palestinians and the US complicity in this violence against
Palestinians.

p_antschel


  


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