From: "Steven Snell" <04048675-AT-brookes.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Osama is working for Bush then
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:24:44 -0000


Steve/all -- you have presented me with a great break down of terrorism. I 
am going to go through your email sentence by sentence and extract other 
useful bits or information (apology for going about it this way).

The majority of terror has always been carried out by state sponsored
groups. WHAT SEEMS KEY HERE IS 'STATE SPONSORED' AND NOT THE STATE IN 
DIRECT. A vast number of  actions which I would classify as worthy of the
name  'terror' have been carried out by groups sponsored by democratic
states. TERROR, ESPECIALLY POST 9/11 SEEMS SEMANTICALLY WEAKENED. BUT AGAIN, 
FUNDING IS A MAJOR ISSUE AS IN DEFINING WHO IS CARING OUT THE ACTION AND WHO 
IS 'KEEPING THEIR HANDS' LESS DIRTY, OR SO TO SPEAK. As a consequence of 
this I  can't agree that terrorism is predicated
on jealosy - because normally it is structured on the basis of  the powerful
 oppressing  others. THIS QUESTION COULD LEAD DOWN A ROAD OF ONTOLOGY, OR 
MORE SO, A POSTMODERN CONCEPT OF WHAT IS KNOWLEDGE -- OR GOOD/CORRECT 
KNOWLEDGE. I AM REMINDED HERE OF THE SOKAL HOAX AND MO VS. POMO KNOWLEDGE. 
WHAT I MEANT BY JEALOUSLY WAS AN ADMITTED BIASED WESTERN EPISTEMOLOGICAL 
STANDPOINT. PERHAPS THE 'WESTERNISED' ACCESS TO KNOWLEDGE VIA SCIENCE HAS 
LIFTED THE BURDEN OF A COMPOSED MYTH OR NARRATIVE EXPRESSING WORLD TRUTH OR 
GOODNESS. This is not to suggest  that terrorist groups  do not
exist but that in each case they have quite specific social and political
reasons for existing.

These days I would probably argue that actually existing democracy is not
the solution but part, even the major part  of the problem.  After all  it's
record in supporting and enabling liberty is absolutely appalling. I'M NOT 
SURE IF I CAN OVERLY AGREE WITH THIS. MUST OF WHAT I SEE SHOWS THAT HUMANS 
DO NEED TO BE GOVERNED, LED. SOMEWHERE BETWEEN ANARCHY AND FASCISM SEEMS TO 
OFFER THE BEST POSSIBILITIES AS I SEE IT.

This doesn't answer the nation-state question but I don't know how this can
be addressed without some discussion of the globalisation  issue. 
GLOBALIZATION OR RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE?

CHEERS,

STEVEN.

steve

> All --
>
> Just a brief comment/question. Can there actually be a war on
> terrorism? For  a crude definition, terrorism seems to be predicated on
> a notion of  jealously. Does a long and sweeping war campaign decrease
> jealously? I don't  wish to suggest that liberal democracy is the "end
> of history," nor am I  suggesting that all societies of the world will
> get along in some sort of  grand utopia when everyone embraces
> democracy. But more simply, why can't  nations stop provoking other
> nations? Is this perhaps a behaviourist  questions?
>
> Steven.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Judy" <jaw-AT-earthlink.net>
> To: <lyotard-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Osama is working for Bush then
>
>
>> steve, all--
>> that sounds plausible.  bringing back memories of when the Iranian
>> ayatollahs helped Reagan get elected.  the US has had a working
>> relationship with bin Laden for a long time.  wasn't he first
>> recruited by  the CIA to take on the progressive socialist government
>> of Afghanistan in  the early 80s, drawing the Soviets in, and
>> depleting their strength?  and  he is recruited again, by the
>> Pentagon, to assist the Islamic
>> fundamentalist faction in Bosnia with al Qaida mujahadin in the 90s,
>> to  overpower and subjugate the alliance of Serbs and moderate
>> Muslims. Hard  to read what's going on of course, but i would not rule
>> out anything. Judy
>>
>>
>>
>>>Glen/steven/all
>>>
>>>The tape has been broadcast everywhere - I just wondered if the
>>>neo-cons,  whose relationship to religion is much the same as the
>>>Islamists, that is  to say Bin-Laden's, might have paid for them
>>>escalate the fear quotient in  the hope of gaining a few votes...
>>>
>>>Terrorism is by definition centralised, for it mirrors the history of
>>>the  centralised state. Has there ever been a terrorist group that has
>>>not been  infiltrated by the states secret services? It is not just
>>>that the USA  helped create the current islamist groups with both
>>>money and arms,  it  seems probable that just as in previous terrorist
>>>campaigns they will have  infiltrated their own agents into the
>>>groups...  This is normal practice,  hence my wondering whether
>>>Osama's controller might have told him to  intervene and issue the
>>>tape for George. That doesn't mean it will work  after all these
>>>people are imbeciles.
>>>
>>>Looking at the US election from afar it's clear that actually existing
>>> democracy is a terrible system....
>>>
>>>best
>>>steve
>>>
>>>Glen Fuller wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve, do you mean because of the recent tape of Osama that has been
>>>>broadcast on CNN repeatedly over the last day or so? ciao,
>>>>glen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So that's it then Osam Bin Laden he really is working for Bush...
>>>>>
>>>>>and vice versa... obviously
>>>>>s
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- StripMime Warning --  MIME attachments removed --- This message
>>>may  have contained attachments which were removed.
>>>
>>>Sorry, we do not allow attachments on this list.
>>>
>>>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative
>>>  text/plain (text body -- kept)
>>>  text/html
>>>---
>>
>>