Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:28:56 -0400
From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki)
Subject: M-FEM: Can one seperate the mind from the body?


Can one seperate the mind from the body?

Obviously their is a big attempt going om here at Marxism-Feminism at
jefferson Village to do exactly just that! As if one can put oneself above
the present human material on this list which exists of men-women with
various different emotional, political and experience in backgrounds coming
from many different parts of the planet to discuss "marxism" and or
"feminism". Linda's attempts to describe her "baby out" experience and
connect it to her becoming social and then a "socialist" is now being worked
over by a whole crowd of serious "theroticians" and closet "new" leftists,
neo-Stalinists Menshevik and closet feminists that have been hanging in the
wings watching the show..It is so funny because Linda's experience at best
is considered "fetechist" at best and personalizing and all the rest. As if
their shit does not stink and lie above all this stuff. Now naturally I am
certainly not against theory. But since when has this crowd of petty
bougeois intellectuals who have had life served to them on a silver spoon
been able to seperate their "experience" in university spending most of
their lives so far in lecture sals or the nearest leftist or feminist
bookstore given them the right to lecture poor and working class people.. Or
in fact make up special rules which gives them the right to control who says
what or why...

Not only that, theory is not something that one puts on a fucking pedistal,
which appears to be the case here as a goal in itself!  And in this case
only certainl people who qualify to discuss this theory! But theory is a
guide to action just as action is a guide to theory.But theory is also
connected to which class and which society we are fighting for. And in who's
interest in this society one elects to fight for. It is also connecte to
each and every individual and his or her experiences in life. And as soon as
things start heating up our list intellectuals immediately start screaming
and coming with organisational rules that in fact stop any kind of debate or
exchange of personal experiences. That is what is really going on here in
the aftermath of Linda being driven from the list..

As a poor and working class person myself I was just recently involved in a
solidarity movement with the cleaning ladies in the public sector in a city
near by.They went out on strike in order to save their jobs from being
privatised..Now the theory involved here was certainly not in the heights of
the crowd here. But the theory was basically to win their demands. Obviously
this neccessarily involved a whole lot of partial tactical and programatic
conclusions which in the struggle helped these women not only widen their
theoretical horizons and learn from their mistakes. It allso gave and
opportunity for Communist/Internationalists to intervene and try and raise
the level both from the local level to the national level and then on to the
International level. Although this struggle can not be compared to the
Liverpool dockworkers YET it basically has the same fundemental
characteristics of struggling, theory, and needs of these women to link up
with these struggles with their class brothers.

According to Martha, (the possible new moderater) and others these kinds of
struggles, or the struggle to give birth to a baby, or anything else is
beyond their conception of what this list should be! Bullshit! We don't need
another list of petty bougeois intellectuals, aging leftists, nor feminists
with a "Marie Antonette" complex who think that "theory" means discussing
just there models learned in and envionment which hardly has anything to do
with poor and working class women.
By the way as a Communist/Militant,poor and working class person your
credentials Martha don't mean dip shit to me except your obvious attempt to
steer the "discussions" as a new "moderater". If that is what you think the
role of a moderater is well both you and Godena who is far worse are only a
hinder to the development of a list where Revolutionary Marxism and the
women's question can be discussed. We need a "moderater" only in the sense
of stopping fascists from dropping in here and naturally any kind of cop
baiting or viscious attempts to gag the debate with organisational rules
that has become the norm here at Jefferson Village with the crowd who
presently holds the power in their hands. I should mention here that so far
Carrol is trying to do a fine job as a moderater despite that he has a
history also at Jefferson Village. But credit should be given to Carrol for
his job so far. Hats off to Carrol who temporarily took over the role as
moderater until some women can come in here and take over the job..

What this list really needs is;

We need some of those moms for example who's infamous words were "I was to
busy raising my babies to think about Vietnam". We need the wifes and
daughters of those Liverpool dockworkers! We need those cleaning women and
we certainly need Linda! Not to mention the millions of women in the third
world. Not a listserve for the intellectual elitist crowd at present on the
net..

This does not mean that theory is not important. Theory and program linked
to action is decisive if we are going to move forward. Theory is important
in the sense of fighting it out between the various trends that claim they
are fighting in the interests of poor and working class women! But the only
"fetechizing" I see going on here is hardly Linda who honestly said in the
beginning of her letter that she was not very "big" on theory..The labels
are in practice being used once again in order to stop this list from
developing freely and in fact the real "fetchizing" going on here are those
very same people who are trying to stop this list from developing. A little
click trying to play their little game must be honestly confronted and their
organisational moves prevented. This is the only real problem.

The fetechizing is the intellectual crowd that think that they can put
theory on a fucking pedistal completely disconnected from any kind of
personal experience. This means that you will not only exclude MEN but women
in the majority on this planet...In reality their are certain elements here
at Jefferson Village that will use any kind of excuse to stop a list from
developing. In fact history has shown us that the millions upon millions of
communist activists historically each had his or her own history which led
them down the path they took. In fact probably the main reason. In fact it
is only the intellectual crowd who possibly could be so personally
disconnected from theory because class struggle and the fight to survive in
the rat race called capitalism has never reached these people. A few really
hungry stomachs in this crowd or some babies that are sick and no money for
medicine or food stamps would be a great training ground for them. In fact
you remind me of the social workers here in Sweden in a lot of ways. A
university education and a job in the welfare service to "help" us poor
working class slobs starve to death just a little slower!

We need a list here for poor and working class women who can feel free to
say anything they want in their search for knowledge and theroy..You people
are preparing either conciously or unconciously a big fucking sign for M-F.
The sign says "poor and working class people don't bother" coming to M-F.
This is the turf of the petty bougeois intellectual, aging leftist and
feminist crowd who will defend their turf of theoretical purity from those
horrible prolos and smelly working class crowd who mistakenly are trying to
connect their feelings,experiences,struggles into a theory and program of
action which can take them forward..

For our intellectual crowd the theory in back of the above is fairly
simple.It is called
seeing which class in society is the revolutionary class because of their
position in society. Connected to raising the level of the conciousness of
this class in order to fill its historical role in smashing the society that
has put chains on them.

But in order to do that they are going to have to link their experiences in
life to theory and a revolutionary struggle to change the situation.

This list is reeking of petty bougeois snobbism. A big dos of male
chauvinist intellectual baiting of a women who honestly tried to describe
her "baby out" experience. And now after the fiasco and attempted operation
clean up M-F from people who, horror of horrors try to present their views
or experiences and move this list in a direction which best suites their
present political and social life experiences and fuck everybody else.
Godena the aging Stalinist being the best example of using his "moderater"
powers in order to sectoralize the struggle and capitulate on his knees to
the feminist battle cry "NO MEN"..His political line is completely bankrupt
on this question just as his recent writtings on M-I which writes off the
working class as the only revolutionary class are. He is in fact trying to
drive the list in is own political direction which is a capitulation to any
kind of alien class forces historically and he is doing it with the
"moderater" power trip that has turned the Jefferson lists like M-I into
personal turf for their rotten politics..In fact the worst feminist I have
seen yet is the Stalinist Godena who is using the feminist stick to block
discussions once again...And if you think the Stalinists have ever done
anything for women then you better think twice before following the
Stalinist Godena'=E4s "feminist" advice!

For and open M-F for all where the delete button will determine who reads
what is sent to the list. Stop the fucking god pretentions because you can
not seperate the mind from the body nor the life experiences of any
individual on this list including the loudest who are presently putting
themselves above "personal experience"..
Ha what a joke. Why not tell me that Pigs fly or something.

There is a little click that is constantly using every "crisis" on the list
in order to "moderate" it in the direction of their "own" ideas and
experiences in life. So stop trying to bullshit everybody!

And Linda come on back! Tell these assholes to fuck off! In fact their
message is that you should hate yourself and your experience. i.e. that
means hate yourself and your baby! Tell them to stick their theroy up their
asses! I think it was a great description. Although I do not agree with some
of your conclusions..

And as far as men are concerned on this list! Well go ahead and make this
idiot rule. I will certainly write a long article about how the M-F forbids
half of the poor and working class from taking part in the discussions and
all men. If that is the way you want it fine. But it is utopian to think
that this will change living reality for women. Experience has proved to me
that I and many other men exist and we will certainly not disappear. Only by
fighting for a future communist society can we solve a lot of these problems
and in order to get their it will take the entire International Proletariat
despite what the present powers on this list believe! It will also take a
program and a Bolshevik/Leninist organisation of womens section in a future
reforged Communist International which can really liberate women. All else
is a utopian pipedream..

And the excuse that women can't "discuss" is a lie in this context.
Everybody has got a keyboard and a post button. So no poor little women flim
flam operations.In fact the cleaning ladies hear certainly would be
laughing. They know the difference between discussion and action and in fact
power. There strike committeee was in fact all women. But it certainly did
not stop men from discussing solidarity and struggle. In fact it was welcomed!

But on this list we will once again probably see a rotten block of the
present crowd both against a free development of this list and a sign "No
poor and working class people allowed" except on our terms!

Warm Regards
Bob Malecki
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