Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:53:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki) Subject: Marxist-International doing the laundry? As a new precedent is being set here on discussing the new Marxist-International list on the general list and not on the Marxist International List where it belongs. I send this post to both lists. I object to the fact that Marxist International is trying to wash their dirty laundry here on the general list while keeping the Marxist International list clean for "serious" discussion. I think the word STERILE in fact would be more appropriate. I do not mind that you bring this stuff up on Marxism-general but it should be discussed on the MI list also because it is about just this list! So stop using the general list to discuss you problems about MI or least take them up their where they belong! Warm Regards Bob Malecki Doug writes; > You might want to check out the web page of the writer of the >Left Business Observer who is a subscriber to Marxism-International >and Marxism2 for sources: M2 STILL EXISTS! Which proves my original point about the power structure and manuvring to cut up M1 where the real action was. A block of the petty bougeois intellectual wing at Jefferson village to control the debate and the airwaves in their own interests. I protest this despicable act of lying and deceitful action by spoon who said that M2 would be layed down at the same time as M1. In fact this proves that those in power are only interested in controlling the proletarian wing >from taking part in the discussion. Ang writes; "Yeah, there are lots of reasons I didn't subscribe to Marxism- International (& you'll probably be sorry you asked given the length of my reply :-). I think a moderated list was unnecessary and will be harmful. Here's what I said on the topic of moderation when Marxism-1 was still alive - I'm against moderated lists. All of our other information is filtered down to us and now this has to be too? Carrol thinks moderation could lead to dull lists, I think moderation could lead to me missing out on something that I would have wanted to read. I really don't want others deciding for me what is relevant to the topic ... " <snip> I agree with Ang except for the above about not subscribing to MI. Because i think that a list regulated by a number of post is correct principly because of the economic question. However the choice of names shows that it was more then economics that was involved in setting up MI. It was a coup de tat by certain elements who think that there shit stinks a little less then others! Futhermore i include what i said originally about why the reorganization of the lists at Jefferson Village and the reasons for this reorganisation. Jefferson Village from a Communist Workers eyes! Analisis of the Struggle at Jefferson Village! As it appears that the open "Marxism M1 list at Jefferson Village will soon end and be replaced with the line of many small moderated groups under the control of the present majority and powers that be in this American centered creation I find it perhaps in place to give my views on the struggle that has been taking place, the forces and powers in back of that struggle in relation to creating a communist Internationalist List for all trends in the workers movement and poor and working class people be they red, white, black or yellow can discuss our common future. At the beginning of the present struggle and concious turn by the present majority and powers at Jefferson Village I wrote the following: "Marxism" at Jefferson Village "reorganises!" Well now it is official. The spoon at Jefferson village has decided to reorganise the list and discussion. Naturally, like class struggle, all things change. The actors move in different directions and the battles draw lines even here in cyberspace. Despite the rosy picture presented by spoon as "reorganisation" one must say that the reorganisation is something that is connected to the history of M1 and M2 lists. The people involved, at least those who have been here for a while, is the dynamic force in this new reorientation. These people including myself is the human material with all of its various ideological and living experience in interaction which has brought about the present state of things. The remarkable think about this process is how the cyberspace is being used to enforce all of these political and personal *real* life experiences. Thus trying to turn this media into deviding up this human material into various files where they can survive in peaceful bliss without being contaminated by a virus from the other rich political and personal backgrounds of those who claim to be "marxist" orientated. A family of revolutionaries that can exist, at least in cyberspace, in seperate little rooms where they feel comfortable. Sort of like packing lollipops in individual or group plastic bags to keep them sterile for the uninformed consumer...Even better would be the history of the "new" leftwhich has led a gruopie existence especially amongst intellectual circles for a rather long time. It appears that the spoon is looking for organisational and moderation forms to strenghen this process of groupie existence of the left on Internet. In other words a little fack or room for each member or family to move into and be happy with their convictions. How quaint! I think that it is a very logical outcome of the last months of struggle. Especially amongst the intellectuals on this list whos politics is connected to presenting their views to small groups of polite people who don,t have to worry about where the next meal is coming from or have been unemployed for months or years. However i defend free speech and even the right to live in isolation and groupie existence even for those that prefer this alternative. However i do intend to subscribe to all of the new groups and try to follow the rules in order to make life uncomfortable for my political opponents. Or will i be prevented from doing this by my political opponents? Thus proving; That the present "reorganisation" is not more then a physical expression of the present groupie and individualist life that our "marxists" on this list appear to prefer in private little rooms rather then and open forum where ideas can clash. Because it is quite clear there are certain individuals that are trying to use this reorganisation as a tool to gag people from participating in the debate. Naturally i defend the right of people to discuss in anyway they want to the questions facing those who claim to be "marxist".. However to organise the discussion along the sectarian and groupie principals that the left has so long been doing in real life and raising it to a principle under the guise of "reorganisation" would be criminal. In fact, only a broad and open discussion with all political tendencies with people from all walks of life can show the way forward. We have nothing to lose but our chains and the chains that those who will gag a free and open discussion will put on us under the guise of moderation and reorganisation. The best thing that can happen to people is to be confronted with living ideas and politics is through and open clash on and open forum where moderation is directed only against facist provacateurs and *real* cops! Those who need to hide behind closed and moderated doors have something to hide or are afraid that there politics can not stand up to open and real confrontation are the only ones who gain by building walls around themselves with this new orientation by the spoon. This i,m afraid, despite all the rhetoric, is the underlying reason for the new reorganisation of the lists. Now as we draw near to the end of the m1 list at Jefferson Village this analisis has proved quite true! But one should add that in the process of the struggle the lines became clearer and sharper as the actors took positions and began to carry out the battle which is presently raging. But it also has showed some interesting turns that raise some important questions for Communist and poor and working class people coming on line to the Internet. One of the first questions is posed by the clear domination of Americans on the lists of Jefferson Village and that the technology for carrying on a discussion is in the hands of a few who can pull the plug at any time. Thus on a small scale Jefferson village has showed that power (!) is in the hands of those who control the buttons and tecnology. Thus Internet being a bougeois media controlled by the capitalist and imperialists internationally can pull the plug in the future in a period of wars and revolutions. The Americans and the present reformist and centrist petty bougeois majority of new leftists can it appears pull the plug when they see that their politics are being attacked from the left or by anyone who threatens the present majority with the finger on the button. Naturally if one were to go back over a period of time on the M1 list, one would see the first struggle around the creation of M2 by the ivory tower who reacted to the Peruvian Stalinists walking in and fight for their line. But also some of the "Trotskyists" trends who took up the Mantle to do battle. The creation of M2 by spoon was a trial and escape hatch for the petty bougeois envionment that existed and felt threatened by the Peruvian Maoists with their pick up the gun rhetoric. But when some of the Trotskyists currents took on the maoists and others that were left a new devision took place with the more reformists and right wing trends left on M1 became more enraged and desperate as the struggle developed. Because they had no political answers they turned to slander against the proletarian wing of the list and went outside to the spoon and m2 in order to block with the petty bougeois intellectualls to present the new line of many moderated lists. Thus a block with the petty bourgeois ivory tower component on Spoon and M2 joined hands with the right wing which was left on M1 in order to stop the Stalinists and Trotskyist trends by gagging, exclusion, expulsion and so on. It was the classical reaction by the right, center wing on M1 and the petty bougeoisie on spoon and m2 to defend themselves from Internet destruction on the lists. With the power in their hands they did not need ideas to win the struggle of ideas, just rules and the power over the technology at Jefferson Village which the Americans and the right wing have at this point. However the battle has only begun on Internet. It will continue and grow just as in real life the reformists and centrists betray poor and working class people and the petty bougeoisie become more historical as the crisis deepens. The poor and working class will have to create their own organs of power along with the Bolshevik leadership which must take form if we are going to take power in the future. One of those goals will be to wrip out of the hands the control of this media by capitalists and imperialists, but also their lackies the petty bougeoisie who dominate and control this media. In the final analisis that is what it all comes down too. The dictatorship of poor and working class people over this media or the other side. There is no way for compromise. Class war is class war everywhere and on this media too. So nothing changes that concrete fact now does it. Towards a Communist Internationalist list for poor and working class people open to all under present conditions of power in the hands of our class enemies and political traitors must be seen as a gift, if at all possible, under the present circumstances. A gift that can be given and taken away by those in power. Don,t ever forget it (!) and rely on your own power in the struggle. What the capitalist or reformist and centrists traitors can give, they can take away at their whim. Because they have the power in their hands and if threatened will use that power! The point is to change it by fighting for workers governments everywhere that will expropriate the expropriaters including this media. Warm Regards Bob Malecki
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