File spoon-archives/marxism-general.archive/marxism-general_1997/97-01-04.073, message 55


Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:28:00 +0100 (MET)
From: rolf.martens-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se (Rolf Martens)
Subject: M-G: Klasberries get US/"Nobleman" boot threat on M-I


>From a friendly source, I got the below forwarded message
>from that M-I list on which, if I'm correctly informed,
you're not allowed to maintain that another subscriber is
or may be a cop.

That rule came into being, I suppose, on account of the 
very successful "Quispe" fight on the old "M1" last April-June
and perhaps in some small part directly because of my 140 kB
5-part posting on 30.06.96 "Why do I think Chris is a cop?",
which referred to that fight and to one of "Quispe's" allies,
Chris Burford.

It does hint at some cops being involved in the running of
those Spoon Collective lists, doesn't it? But I think the
existence of these lists is a good thing anyway.

Now, recently, there obviously was posted a threat on that
list, by Luis "Nobleman" Project (whose not too progressive
standpoint on certain issues became clear in some debates on "M1") 
against the Klasberries, that if they didn't at once stop saying 
that one must suspect the "MRTA" hosting-taking action still going 
on in Lima just to be the work of US imperialism intending above
all to make trouble for the (in part) rivalling Japanese,
he would *call on the moderators to throw them out*.

Interesting!

This "Nobleman" dislikes such talk so much that he wants to
use as *a kick-out reason* not only someone's saying a *list 
subscriber* is a cop but saying that *some people in general* in 
the world - who're not subscribing at all but who *are* calling 
themselves "Marxists" - may be suspected of acting as puppets for
some reactionary forces!

In whose interests might *this* be, in this particular case?
Well, I'm not sufficiently informed to say with certainty
who's behind the hostage-taking. But since 19.12, I've been
putting forwards some reasons, on this list, why one must
suspect it's the US imperialists. This after an historian had
asked, don't others too think it's a little fishy that the US
ambassador left 30 minutes before it all started? That historian
too perhaps might have subjected to a similar threat by
Nobleman, if she had posted such a (very reasonable) thought to
M-I? And Jay Miles of the Detcom, Detroit, also, in some of
the first of his postings on the subject, seemed to agree on
that suspicion. (Some of the later arguments by the Klasberries
for them were not so bad, in my opinion).

But this boot threat (on M-I) I hold is something that all
should take note of. It shows one more time that there are some
people on these lists who see reasons for fearing to the
utmost certain discussions and are prepared to go to great
lengths to try to suppress them.

Rolf M.

<---- Begin Forwarded Message ---->
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 11:08:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu>
To: Klasber-AT-aol.com
cc: marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: Re: M-I: NEUE EINHEIT to several questions//..MRTA
In-Reply-To: <961231090755_1755889438-AT-emout08.mail.aol.com>
Sender: owner-marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Reply-To: marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996 Klasber-AT-aol.com wrote:

>  Translation from the German original.
> 
> 			        I. 
> 
> 	NEUE EINHEIT to several questions
> 
> In connection to a statement about the action of Rolf Martens
> which we published in the middle of August, 1996, whereby we also
> dealt with THE HISTORY OF OUR ORGANIZATION, several questions
> have been sent to our organization  about our position regarding
> questions of the People's Republic of China and several political
> forces there, but also about our position regarding the Communist
> Party of Peru (Shining Path of Mariategui). For several months we


Louis: No questions came from the marxism-international list so why don't
you keep your business on the marxism-general list where you and every
other pipsqueak sect can issue manifestos and "HISTORY OF OUR
ORGANIZATIONS" until the cows come home. Some organization, I'll bet. 6
philosophy students in Munich sleeping until noon every day.


> Presently an action has gained the attention of the worldwide
> public, the action of hostage-taking in the Japanese embassy in
> Lima by the MRTA. The MRTA is - to put it mildly - an utterly
> unclear revolutionary organization which  is to be seen  in a
> connection not only with Peruvian bourgeois parties like the
> APRA, but also with circles of  US capitalism which are behind.

Louis: Unclear? They seem to be a typical Castroite guerrilla group, not
unlike the Tupamaros from Uruguay, or the FARC and M-19 in Colombia from
earlier days.

> It can hardly be imagined that an action like an occupation of an
> embassy will change the least of the social situation in Peru,
> like it can be heard from the MRTA which in all seriousness
> "demands" from the present government to change its policies into
> the direction of the interests of the broad masses in Peru. As

Louis: This is only partially true. It will certainly not change the
social situation, which requires the self-organization of the
working-class and the peasantry. Nobody in the MRTA could assume that this
would be the outcome. My guess is that their goals are more achievable: to
wrest improvement in the prison conditions of political prisoners and to
throw the Fujimori regime into a political crisis. It has been successful
to some extent.

> 
> Certainly several members who have put through the occupation of
> the embassy are inspired by the wish to help their prisoners in
> the dungeons of the Peruvian state. We think, however, that not
> by coincidence this aspect during the further actions went into
> the background, and that the actual endeavours, as described by
> us, will come to the fore, because American imperialism has
> always tried, in all of the countries, to gain a foothold not
> only with the reactionaries but also to infiltrate the
> revolutionary groups and make them active according to 
> ITS OWN WISHES.
> 

Louis: So it is because "American imperialism has always tried ...to
infiltrate the revolutionary groups and make them active according to ITS
OWN WISHES". This is an accusation that the MRTA is acting as an
agent-provocateur. There are people on this list, myself included, who
identify with Castroism.

When you make baseless charges against a Castroite guerrila group, you are
looking for trouble. This type of charge is the sort of thing you should
feel free to make on the marxism-general list, not here. If you insist on
continuing to make them here, I will petition the moderators to kick your
smelly anonymous asses off of this list.

[So far that stuff from M-I that I got forwarded to me. - RM]






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