File spoon-archives/marxism-general.archive/marxism-general_1997/97-01-06.201, message 6


Subject: RE: M-G: Dr Sendepause & Klasberries posting again!
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:32:21 +-200


Hello Rolf.

First of all, please accept my apology for calling you ignorant. I did it out of anger - but it shouldn't be a way of discussion in any case. About Marxism - I guess you know more than me. But  I think that out of all this the thing that interested me the most was what you said about Marxism and socialism:
1) Socialism and Marxism are based on class struggle, by the proletariat
against the bourgeoisie, *not* on "human equality".
The way I look at Marxism or socialism, I treat them only as political "tools" or ways, which have a purpose or a goal to achieve. I'm trying to do something that I call "thinking from second degree", which means - to find what is the purpose behind the purpose, to separate between the political way and the main ideological / philosophical idea behind it.
I think (maybe because I declare my self as an Anarchist Socialist) that the proletariat struggle against the bourgeoisie is the way to achieve a social situation in which the society is based on values of solidarity and cooperation and not on competitions and alienation. In my opinion, only this kind of society will give the man and woman (every one of them) the chance to live self-fulfillment lives (which is I think, the way for happier life).
This thought, and many others, of mine is based on the main value (which leads all my ideological and political thoughts) of HUMANS EQUALITY. That's what I meant when I talked about what socialism is based on.
I would like to know what is your opinion about these thoughts.

Ishai Parasol
Hashomer Hatzair
The Israeli Socialist Youth Movement

email: parasol-AT-ibm.net

----------
From:  Rolf Martens[SMTP:rolf.martens-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se]
Sent:  é=E5=ED =F9é=F9é 03 é=F0=E5=E0=F8 1997 17:27
To:  marxism-general-AT-jefferson.village.virginia.edu
Subject:  Re: M-G: Dr Sendepause & Klasberries posting again!

Ishai P. wrote, on 02.01:

>I thought that all those things of socialism and marxism are based on the
>main value of HUMANS EQUALITY, or maybe homosexuals are not human ???

1) Socialism and Marxism are based on class struggle, by the proletariat
against the bourgeoisie, *not* on "human equality".

2) As for those persons which are considered by the propaganda and
by themselves to be homosexuals (somewhat less than 1% in the USA,
for instance, according to a fairly recent survey), the thing we
were discussing was whether a new kind of marriage should be instituted
by which two persons of the same sex can get married to each other.
I'm against it. I've explained why - see other postings. That doesn't
mean that I'm saying that those persons whom circumstances in society
have caused to have such strange desires should not be treated as
human beings by others.

>I'm not sure whether Martens said his things out of hypocrisy or maybe just
>simple common ignorance...
>
>Ishai Parasol
>Hashomer Hatzair -
>The Israeli Socialist Youth Movement

Hyporcisy, that's pretending to think something you don't really think.
I don't think any such can be inferred from my postings. And as for
ignorance, what is it that you think you know that I don't? About
Marxism, you're rather ignorant, at any rate.

Rolf M.



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