Subject: FW: M-G: Re: family and Marxism
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:25:48 +-200




----------
Sent:  é=E5=ED =E7=EEé=F9é 09 é=F0=E5=E0=F8 1997 02:11
To:  'Robert Malecki'; marxism-general-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject:  RE: M-G: Re: family and Marxism

Hello Robert

I'd like to tell you about the attempt to make cooperative education
and children raising, in the last 70-80 years in the KIBBUTZES in Israel.
The main purposes of this system were very much like the purposes of the
communists about this issue.
{
 For Communists the problem is put in freeing people from this medival
institution and in a planned way, collectively to try and solve the problems
of child raising and at the same time freeing people to develop in other 
areas to their full potential. I mean the role of father, mother certainly
will not dissappear, but the reactionary ideology and organisational forms
around this stuff should be organised in a way that raising
children,healthcare,childcare,schooling and even some of the free time is
collectively organised in order to give parents more time to do other
things--but also that children can avoid sometimes the oppressive
atomosphere of their parents!
}
The children in the Kibbutz didn't live with their parents in their houses, they lived in what we call in Israel "children house" . Every grade had its own house and the children slept there, ate there and lived there for all over their childhood. They had used to go to their parents, and to spend time with them every day (usually in the afternoon). Every day the children went to school (which was a school of children from kibbutzes all over the area) and after school got back to their "children houses" to eat lunch, make homework & etc. When the children got to highschool they went to a special highschool of kibbutz's children and lived there most of the week.
But over the years, especially on the 80's towards the 90's, more and more families demanded to raise their children on their own, In their own houses as a one unite family unit.
We can also see today many men and women that were raised in this communist way and now they can talk about many problems they have because of this - in raising their own children, their connection with their parents, they memories from their childhood are not always very good and generally they speak about it as a non natural way to raise children, their opinion is usually in favor of the regular family construct.
This things are based on many researchers that has been done about this issue and I think that all of us should learn that experience when we come to have a debate about it.

P.S. - if you are not familiar with the definition "KIBBUTZ" - I think that as a marxist thinker you must learn it. Any way, as a Kibbutz movement member,  I'll be glad to tell you much more about it.

Ishai Parasol
Hashomer Hatzair
The Israeli Socialist Youth Movement.

Email: parasol-AT-ibm.net

----------
From:  Robert Malecki[SMTP:malecki-AT-algonet.se]
Sent:  é=E5=ED =F8=E1é=F2é 08 é=F0=E5=E0=F8 1997 12:06
To:  marxism-general-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject:  Re: M-G: Re: family and Marxism

Leszek writes;
>
>	I must say I was shocked to read what you've written about the
>family, the abolition of it as well as "collective upbringing of
>children". In a way I do understand why you want to do away with the
>family. After all, it seems to be one of very few institutions left which
>still clings to traditional values and shapes its members in an individual
>way. "Collective upbringing of children" would put an end to any variety
>of opinions and ideas - the same thing has already happened in most state
>owned schools, hasn't it? It is curious to note that elimination of
>private schools is always the first step in any leftist revolution. That
>is why I have always wondered why leftist or left-wing humanists are never
>against such ideas - after all these ideas mean the end of differentiation
>and one, uniform system of thought. Where will human freedom go then? What
>will happen to discussions, arguments, even quarrels and rows? Instead of
>them, you will have a collection of the same units, oops, people
>- thinking the same, acting the same, feeling the same. IF YOU OPT FOR
>SUCH A SOCIETY, PLEASE HAVE ME EXCLUDED.
>	One more thing. Have you ever been to a home of unwanted children?
>Have you ever witnessed the tragedy of children who can't find their
>foster parents. Have you ever seen this highly acclaimed "collective
>upbringing of children"? Well, I have. And I don't want to anymore.
>				=09
>					=09

Hi Leszek,

Welcome to the list by the way. Nice to have another Pollack around..Now to
your letter.

Actually I think that your attack on Vlad on the family question is and
attack on the Stalinist political tradition in regards to the family. Vlad
on the other hand i believe tries to take a Marxist approach to this stuff.

In fact in the Eastern block countries and in your case Poland the
Stalinists in fact had already made the turn back to the family. This in a
direct break with the earlier politics of the Communist International during
the time of Lenin.

I think that the family wheter under a bougeois system, the chatholic church
or Stalinism is reactionary in the sense that it is and institution which
oppresses people in in a lot of cases Women in the family.

The family has been always used by the bougeoisie, the church and the
Stalinists to oppress people. To create a unit which puts its personal wel
being before the well being of the collective whole. The Stalinists used the
family question to at first glorify the "Russian Mother" in having a lot of
babies to replace those lost in the war.The church in order to hold its
reactionary and feudal ideology over people.

For Communists the problem is put in freeing people from this medival
institution and in a planned way, collectively to try and solve the problems
of child raising and at the same time freeing people to develop in other 
areas to their full potential. I mean the role of father, mother certainly
will not dissappear, but the reactionary ideology and organisational forms
around this stuff should be organised in a way that raising
children,healthcare,childcare,schooling and even some of the free time is
collectively organised in order to give parents more time to do other
things--but also that children can avoid sometimes the oppressive
atomosphere of their parents!

And to paint up the Eastern block countries as some sort of horror story and
especially Poland is just not true! In fact the meat ration in Poland since
the war has always been higher then the meat ration in the former Soviet 
Union. Naturally I am quite sure that there are examples of bureaucratic 
mismanagement and old the rest. But in the third world the death rate for
children is much higher then any of the former eastern block countries. And
in the west the choice for most of the poor and working class kids is
prison,drugs.the army, or being a slave in a capitalist owned factory.

In fact I believe I have seen some numbers that say that well over 30
million Americans live under the starvation line. Here in Scandinavia
(Sweden) where I presently recide and which was and still is considered a
"welfare" state we once again have soup lines from the thirties and welfare
payments is now in the billions! In fact everyone is saying that we are
heading towards a great disaster again.

So Communists are certainly going to have to find a solution to these
problems. Because the bougeoisie, the chruch and the former Stalinists have
certainly not solved anything. And for Communists the whole point is that we
are on the side of the poor and working class.

Finally, what has the new regime in Poland done for poor and working class
kids. I bet that things have certainly not gotten any better in Poland. In
fact the Chatholic church wants to reintroduce forbidding abortions! (If 
they have not done that already)

I hope that you can balance you hate of the Stalinists regimes with a hate
for the bougeois and religous institutions none of them that actually 


     --- from list marxism-general-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---