Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:05:27 +0000
Subject: M-G: Re: M-I: Cooperatives? Do we need to claim that socialism w


> From:          cbcox-AT-rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Carrol Cox)
> Subject:       Re: M-I: Cooperatives? Do we need to claim that socialism works?
> To:            marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> Date:          Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:06:22 -0600 (CST)
> Reply-to:      marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU

> At 11:06 Friday January 10 Justin writes:
> 
>     What we need right now as far as a vision of the future
>     goes, is a set of reasonably convincing answers to the
>     worry that socialism won't work under the best circum-
>     stances. This is a major political and intellectual obstacle
>     to winning subordinate groups to socialist ideas.
> 
> Now I actually have, over the last quarter of a century, moved a
> number of people into socialist (revolutionary) activity and
> ideas, and I have moved a rather larger group of people to be
> willing to work with those holding revolutionary positions. BUT:
> 
>     I have never, within such activity, made the claim that
> socialism will work. In fact, I have usually made an oblique
> claim: that it *probably* or at least very possibly, *WON'T*
> work. In other words, I have operated on the basis of an in-
> tensification (towards pessimism) of Rosa Luxemburg's slogan
> of "socialism or barbarianism." My version of it (in serious
> recruiting activity) has been "socialism or barbarianism, and
> probably barbarianism anyhow--but we KNOW what capitalism
> has done, is doing, and with nearly equal certainty know
> what it is forever going to keep on doing."
> 
>     Besides (and this point can be expressed in dozens of
> different rhetorics), it really is better to get clobbered
> fighting (again I spoil the rhythm of the original cliche) on
> your feet than get clobbered on your knees. Fuck models of
> an invisible future.
>     Carrol
> 
>This is a pretty bleak picture you paint here Justin and Carrol. Is 
this a marxism list or is it a misery list?  I mean Justin seems to 
want  a guarantee in writing, preferrably in a reputable 
journal,  before he commits himself. Carol recruits people to socialism 
by saying -  don't have any faith that you can win, I would not want to 
recruit you on false pretences, but better to go out with a bang than a 
whimper. To model or not to model. Jeez! 
Fortunately for the vast majority of the worlds workers and peasants
that isnt the sum total of our revolutionary Marxist heritage. 
Capitalism at the end of the 20th century is very much like Marx 
wrote in Volume 1 about the `integument bursts asunder'. All 
the objective preconditions are present. Capitalism has created its 
gravedigger, but it wont lie down, it has to be pushed.  Capitalism 
is ripe for revolution, but revolution has failed so far because the 
working class has been bossed around by pessimists and adventurists 
in the name of socialism. In this current counter-revolutionary 
period when workers are on the defensive, we need a programme which 
is able to turn defensive struggles like in Korea into offensive 
struggles for power.  Instead of writing off planning in favour of 
the market, which is just a retreat in the face of the neo-liberal 
offensive, or turning revolution into an act of faith,  lets debate 
the real  Marxism, the programme and the party we need to get us out of this 
shit and turn the thing around.

Dave


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