Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 07:45:04 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Re: M-G: so-called "deformed workers states"


Dave writes again!
>By socialism I mean what you mean by transitional society - the messy 
>revolutionary period of transition between capitalism and communism, 
>
>I was not comparing economically backward countries with advanced ones. I 
>was looking at the industrialized police states in the Soviet Union and 
>Eastern Europe and comparing them with Western Europe and North America. 
>
>What is better, police state tyranny or bourgeois democracy?
>
>What develops the productive forces better, fully elaborated bourgeois 
>property relations or a state kleptocracy?
>
>What sort of civil society would you prefer, Western "decadence" or 
>Polish Catholicism (which thrived under the old regime) and Balkan 
>internecine hatred (left festering under the old regime)?
>
>When a genuine radical movement re-ermeges in the future, where would it 
>prefer to be - in a western society or a police state run by people who 
>call themselves Marxists?

Look Dave,

Both Hug and I have answered you on this stuff and you are completely 
exposed as and apologist for bourgeois democratic imperialism. So much for 
our state capitalist "ultra leftists" ?

And the above is just a repeat of what you were saying in your first letter 
so my answer is the same.

 David the above is just and empirical crock of bullshit. In the first place 
 "Socialism" does not exist anywhere nor has its. What we have had is a 
number of 
different transitional societies where capitalist relations were overthrown. 
We have had a "healthy" workers state, The Russian October Revolution with 
 was dominated by the dictatorship of the Proletariat in the Soviets and led 
 by the Bolshevik Party and Lenin. But this "heallthy" workers state came in 
 backward Russia and because of the degeneration and destruction of the 
 Russian CP and the Third International under Stalin changed that. Then we 
 have had the various "deformed" workers states in numerous countries which 
 also overthreww capitalism albeit without the working class. But never the 
 less transitional states.
 
 Just the idea of transitional states being "better" or "worse" then 
 capitalist states is just ridiculous and actually exposes you as a very base 
opportunist. As if one can judge the two systems which according to you 
 "Western capitalism is obviously a more advanced stage of Social 
 development". Just that line tells tons about our ultra leftists here. As if 
 one can compare two societies by the number of yuppie telephones or 
 something. These people are hardly Communists in fact renagades from 
 anything about Communism when they start telling peopl that the Soviet Union 
 even with the Stalinists leaped from the middle ages and a feudal peasant 
 society to being the other super power in the world. And they did this in 
 the mist of two world wars that destroyed not only a huge percent of the 
 population but industry and territory as well!
 
 But for our ultra leftists they compare Russia in this case with America who 
 in both wars was never even near wear the bombs were falling or occupied. I 
 just can,t wait to hear what these people have to say if for example Turkey, 
 or the Phillipines were to overtghrow Capitalism with some sort of 
 transitional regime whgich hardly could be "better" then ant western country..
 
 The ultra leftists have once again exposed themselves. They are saying quite 
 clearly obviously we are on the side opf western imperialism because they 
 think them supieror! It is just this kind of drastic reactionary fake 
leftist bullshit that makes the ultra lefts in fact ultra rights and here 
 they even admit it!
 
 Bob Malecki



Bob Malecki





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