Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 06:27:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: M-G: Re: M-TH: Poor Quality on Spoon


Karl Carlile wrote:

> People on the lists can start now. They can now start to discuss 
> issues in a calm rational way. In this way the Spoon lists can be 
> developed and in that way socialist politics be developed. START NOW!

This is the ultimate in metaphysical constructs. I.e. if we all get 
together and wish it so, then it will happen. This prescription, without 
regard for history and political and class composition (not to mention a 
critical discussion of the problems inherent in open lists), reminds me 
of the plot line behind some old Judy Garland-Mickey Rooney movies.

Poor levels of discussion (btw, how do we define and gauge that 
expression?) are the result of a complex cluster of factors. To begin 
with, one should place the quality of discussion in the context of 
political and personal enmities that have existed in the past since that 
helps shape how listmembers talk to each other and who remains on any 
given list. More specifically, one should critically evaluate the history 
of the rise, decline, and death of what used to be called the marxism 
list (yet "survived", in undead form, as m1).

The quality of discussion is also sensitive to both the quality of 
discussion by the most frequent posters to a list and the quality of 
"moderation."  In the new scheme of things, there are also questions 
concerning lines of demarcation among lists, e.g. should "newbies"
ask basic questions on m-intro or bring those discussions to other lists? 
Should the discussion of Nietzche be on m-int given its statement of 
purpose or on another list?  Etc., etc., etc.

Then ... there is the question of the class and political composition of 
lists. That needs to be discussed more openly and frankly (and, in so 
doing, some illusions and pretensions should be dispelled). E.g.

Let's say we wanted to cook a "revolutionary net pie" and used the 
following recipe:

1) Add 5 parts Maoists and other Stalinists;
   Add 5 parts Trotskyist sectarians;
   Add 2 parts social democratic;
   Add 3 parts "independent" flamers;
   Add 2 parts sharp, critical, should-know-better;
   Add 10 jars of tobasco sauce, worchester sauce, and jet fuel;
   Sprinkle with salt, pepper, and plutonium.

2) Place above in pie tray and place in oven. Set temperature for 800 
degrees F. Leave apartment, cook for 3 days, and then eat.

Bon appetit!

Jerry




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